Private Equity Spotlight: Investing in Vision and Integrity with Trent Hickman

[00:00:00] Sean Mooney: Welcome to the Karma School of Business, a podcast about the private equity industry, business best practices, and real time trends. I'm Sean Mooney, BluWave's founder and CEO. In this episode, we have a fantastic conversation with Trent Hickman, co managing partner with VSS. Enjoy.

[00:00:34] I'm super excited to be here with Trent Hickman. Trent, thanks for joining. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Sean. Great to be here. I've been looking forward to this one for a long time. We're going to touch on some, I think really timely and really kind of value added topics here before we maybe jump into some of the core of our conversation though, I'd love to get more of your backstory.

[00:00:58] Can you share a little bit more about how you kind of came up, how you got into this industry of private equity?

[00:01:03] Trent Hickman: Sure. Happy to do it. So I grew up in Charlotte, North Carolina, which. When I grew up was not quite the town that is today was maybe two or 300, 000 people, but the city had two banks that were growing just super rapidly were some of the real leaders in bank M and a back in the seventies, eighties and nineties.

[00:01:28] So that generated a lot of interest and enthusiasm for financial services in general, and I wanted to be a part of that. So. Coming out of college where I went to Duke, also in North Carolina, it was natural to go back home to Charlotte and started my career at a place called First Union, which is one of the predecessors to what's now Wells Fargo and that was really the time when a lot of the big commercial banks were trying to get into investment banking and There was a lot of trial and error.

[00:02:04] So For a younger, ambitious guy that was interested in getting a lot of experience and exposure, it really turned out to be a great fit for me. So as a part of that work, a lot of what we were doing was investing in private equity funds. Back when banks did that and as a result, we'd get a lot of the leverage finance business.

[00:02:27] And so I was fortunate enough to spend time with probably 10 or 15 different private equity firms there in the mid 1990s as the industry was really starting to mature. And the one I spent the most time with turned out to be VSS. So actually the first VSS deal I ever worked on was a high yield bond deal.

[00:02:50] For a cable TV company in 1995, so that gave me some early exposure to the industry and I was really fascinated by everything that we're doing, not just in terms of raising debt financing or even the M and a deals, but their corporate development plans and how they hope to work with the companies to build value and development.

[00:03:13] Thank you. I was fortunate enough to be able to see it relatively up close. And so when I went back to business school and was interested in throwing my hat in the ring, BSS was a natural first call. So I joined the firm in the summer of 1999, had a great experience and essentially never left.

[00:03:35] Sean Mooney: I love a lot of what you said there.

[00:03:37] One, just the roots going back to Charlotte. It's such a key kind of cornerstone city in this kind of like the new era of America, where you're getting kind of these places of migration. I used to work with a gentleman named David Webb, if you ever ran into him. He founded Merrill Lynch's sponsor coverage group.

[00:03:55] He used to run their real estate group. A, like one of the gems of gems in the world, who's just an incredible person. But there's this kind of ethos of people who grow up in Charlotte, where there's just kind of. Karma School of Business, good people do good things with and for folks at this great kind of North Star.

[00:04:13] I've always kind of seen from people who grow up there.

[00:04:16] Trent Hickman: Yeah, no, that's great to hear. It's been interesting because so many of the kids that I grew up with, none of us are really kids now, but so many of us ended up ultimately migrating to New York and have gone on and had really nice careers. The joke in Charlotte is that there are no natives of Charlotte.

[00:04:36] Because most of us moved elsewhere, but our places have been more than taken by a lot of people moving down.

[00:04:44] Sean Mooney: It seems like in particular, Charlotte and New York, there's a great to and fro. Absolutely. I grew up in Texas. And so when I moved up to New York and then I was starting BluWave, I did a market study.

[00:04:56] In terms of where to put the company, just because of, I was trying to change the cost equation, which matters at a start from zero startup, it came down to Charlotte and Nashville. And literally it was a coin toss. It was really, really tough because it's an amazing place to be. And I can understand why you and others have become all successful because of the community and the ecosystem that's there.

[00:05:20] Trent Hickman: Absolutely. Well, those are

[00:05:21] Sean Mooney: two great choices. Absolutely. And then the other thing I liked about just kind of your backstory here is. Because of that exposure, it's such a banking town and a finance town. It kind of led you into this world. And when you joined really the late nineties was tell me how you think about this, but it was kind of like the beginning of the modern era of private equity in terms of like the industry really starting to pick up and mature.

[00:05:47] Trent Hickman: Yeah, I think that's right. It's funny. Still very entrepreneurial at that period still is. But people just starting to think more creatively about how do I add value beyond just the initial trade and was kind of early days with some of the larger firms trying to add value through operating partner groups or consulting groups attached or semi attached to their firm and it's been really interesting to watch that Increased specialization over time as good finance generalists have kind of recognized to compete at the highest level.

[00:06:35] They need that expertise in business development or certain consulting or operational skills or financing and so forth because there's just too much for any one person to do it all by themselves anymore.

[00:06:50] Sean Mooney: I totally agree with that. I kind of started in P right around the same time as a rental associate within a private equity firm associated with an investment bank, and they would kind of grab us and get free labor out of us and I would sit there.

[00:07:04] It's like, wow, I wish I was 10 years older right now, but to the credit for the people who had been in for 10 years, no one even thought of that as a career or an industry. So, So they're gonna, they saw something that no one else did. Hi, this is Sean. Wanted to take a quick moment to tell you a little bit why BluWave exists.

[00:07:24] It's based on this whole notion that assessing opportunities and building business is really hard. We all know third party expert service providers can dramatically help, but at the same time, it's hard to know who's good. Usually leaving you like I would do and call friends and ask, do you know someone who does this?

[00:07:43] Just go the square peg round hole route. So, after nearly 20 years in PE, I decided to solve my own problem and created BluWave. Today, many hundreds of PE firms, thousands of portcos, leading public companies, private companies, all call BluWave to instantly get connected with the exact third party service provider they want that's pre credentialed by BluWave and perfectly calibrated for their need.

[00:08:07] Really good. You too can give us a call or visit our website at BluWave. net. We're free to use and you can benefit the same way other top PE firms do. Back to the show. And so before we kind of move on to the next chapter, let's, I'd love to go a little deeper into your backstory and the story of you.

[00:08:25] And one of the questions I'd like to ask is, We'd know you better if we knew this about you. So, Trent, what would be one of those kind of tidbits of trivia or factoids that we would know you better if we knew you?

[00:08:36] Trent Hickman: Yeah, I actually, I have a second job, so I'm actually a ski racing coach at a local mountain to New York up in the Catskills called Wyndham Mountain.

[00:08:47] So, from the beginning of December to roughly the end of March. I'm spending all my weekends and holidays chasing a bunch of 13 and 14 year old ski racers around the mountain and trying to help them go faster and hopefully not hit anyone.

[00:09:05] Sean Mooney: Did you learn to ski once you moved up to the New York area or did you have skiing experiences previously?

[00:09:11] Trent Hickman: Believe it or not, I actually grew up skiing in the North Carolina mountains. A lot of my friends up here, it's interesting, didn't even realize that there was skiing. In the North Carolina mountains, but a place called Beach Mountain is actually the highest elevation ski area on the East Coast. And of course, this was before some of the climate change or global warming.

[00:09:36] So to tell you the truth, the winters in North Carolina in the mountains were actually pretty similar to what we get now and the Catskills. And so. I was fortunate my parents had a mountain house and so every Saturday morning, drive up and parents send my brother and I off to the slopes and they'd relax during the day.

[00:10:00] We had a blast just exploring the mountain and trying to go faster, jump higher. So it wasn't an organized racing program or freestyle program like they also have now, but just a lot of time. exploring and kind of growing a love for the mountains. So I'm really happy to be able to keep doing that.

[00:10:23] Sean Mooney: It's a great skill that you can follow for a long, long time in life.

[00:10:29] And I remember growing up in Austin. Every year, once a year, all the, for the spring break, the local churches would kind of sponsor these trips where we'd load into every parent's suburban, any kind of bus they'd get, and we'd have these caravans that would go all the way up to Colorado and we would scotch guard our jeans and we all be wearing like starter jackets and generations of Coloradoans have now like just reviled Texan skiers because of

[00:10:57] Trent Hickman: that.

[00:10:58] Yeah, no, I remember the scotch guard days. Fortunately. The equipment's a lot better now, so it's, it's a lot more comfortable, even if you get a really cold or even rainy day, I remember those days well,

[00:11:12] Sean Mooney: for people who are listeners here, and maybe they have younger kids who are starting out as a coach of kind of these really accomplished race kids, what would be one of the piece of advice you'd say to get the kids on the right track?

[00:11:24] Trent Hickman: Start as early as he can. I started my daughter when she was about four years old, much prior to four. They're maybe not going to learn a ton, but they can still get some exposure and you can see if they enjoy being outside to the extent you can try to get in a program where there's really a focus on learning, but having a lot of fun doing it.

[00:11:49] It's kind of a cliche, but we're just able to learn a lot of these physical skills at five or six or seven years old, just so much more quickly and also safely. At that age, and if it's something that they really embrace and you're have close enough proximity to a mountain to be able to spend at least a season or two going every weekend or almost every weekend, it just makes a huge difference.

[00:12:21] You think about how much time you actually spend skiing on a typical day of skiing. If you go from 1st chair to last chair, you're probably only skiing 45 minutes or so. So, it's something that's tough to really learn at a high level, skiing just three or four days a year. Not everyone has that opportunity, but if you do, certainly embrace it, and your kids will love you for it, and it's a great way to get out of the house and be active, and be in nature during a time a lot of people are kind of cooped up inside, and getting kind of antsy to move around.

[00:13:03] So, it's something. My family and I have really enjoyed now for a long time.

[00:13:09] Sean Mooney: All right. Well, I love that. So Trent, as we transition to the next phase of our conversation here, one of the things I always like the opportunity to ask people like you have been really successful in this industry is what's kind of your personal scorecard, if you will, when you're looking at a company.

[00:13:27] And I think a lot of investors say, I'm looking for these general attributes of value, maybe not necessarily that they have, but they could have them if they don't. And then that helps you kind of make the world a smaller place. And so what are maybe some of the things that you look for in a company when an opportunity comes across?

[00:13:44] Trent Hickman: Yeah, for us, I think management is number one. If not number one, two, and three, just as a bit of background, we're a relatively small fund. Current funds, 530 million. So we're dealing overwhelmingly with founder led bootstrap businesses. They're profitable, they've built some substantial value, but they're not huge.

[00:14:10] So typically between five and 15 million of EBITDA. And so with management, we're looking for a few things. Number one is high integrity. If you don't have that, then pretty much nothing else matters. There's kind of a great cliché, but it's a cliché because it's true that integrity is, is really what you do when nobody else is looking.

[00:14:36] And as much as we like to say we're super active in these companies and we're on the boards of every company and we think we bring something to the table from an operational perspective, That's never going to be the same as working within the company 50 60 70 hours a week. That's kind of one a number two Do we buy into their vision?

[00:15:01] Is it truly a shared vision? sometimes I worry when management teams will say well gee, what's your vision for the company and They're trying to figure out. Hey, do we buy into that? It really needs to be shared, but at the end of the day, they're leading the company, so it's typically going to be hard for us to come in from the outside and say, Hey, you're doing it all wrong.

[00:15:30] You should really be focused on this area. Instead of that, we might help them shape that vision, refine it, add resources to it. But it's at the end of the day, their company and their vision. The last two points really fall into what I call fire in the belly. Are they really hungry? Are they selling or taking on an investor because they're done and they want somebody else to carry the load and they're staying on because their investment banker told them they have to, or are they taking on an investor because they see an opportunity?

[00:16:13] But they need some combination of capital, maybe a little bit of courage, taking some chips off the table. It's uncomfortable to bet the farm, if you will, if 110 percent of your net worth is in that farm, which we understand. Do they have a lot of hunger for that next step? And is there really a desire to improve and change?

[00:16:40] Are they somebody that has a growth mindset and Is open to suggestions that doesn't mean just by rote, do everything we say, but to on board suggestions or ideas, think deeply about them and then talk through it and figure out what makes sense and what may be an interesting idea, but really doesn't make sense.

[00:17:09] We'll make suggestions to fall into both categories. I think number two is really looking at market factors. The way I like to think of this is for this particular business and its prospects of the next five or 10 years is the wind at our back and that's going to push us forward and we have a chance at above average growth even with average execution or is the wind in our face and we have to do an outstanding job just for a so so growth result.

[00:17:47] And the third area we look for is what I call multiple ways to win. So if I've got a strong management team, I've got the wind at my back, I should be able to get above average growth, not really doing anything too special beyond that. But are there obvious product line extensions? Are there obvious geographic extensions, add on acquisitions, growth opportunities that While we may not hit all six or seven or eight of them, if we get one or two or three and we do those really well, that should give us the opportunity for an outsized return.

[00:18:31] If we hit on more, then we do even better. Those would be kind of the big three for us.

[00:18:38] Sean Mooney: I love that. So for our listeners who are coming up in the industry of private equity or our business builders that want to embrace the private equity way, do what Trent said, he just, he just summed up thousands and thousands of hours of lessons learned really succinctly, I think, in a way like this is how you build companies with speed and certainty and efficacy.

[00:19:01] And so I really love what you said. It was a bit of a masterclass there. And. The management team part that you said, I think was so well said in terms of what you're looking for. It starts with integrity. You don't have that. You might win for a little bit, but ultimately karma catches

[00:19:15] Trent Hickman: up. If they don't have integrity, you better hope they don't have skill.

[00:19:20] Sean Mooney: I think it's exactly right. It's so well said, but you have to have integrity before you can do anything else. But then you also have to have a vision about where you want to take the business. I think so many people think they're going to sell the PE because they can just like. Defer or delegate that that's not what investors are looking for.

[00:19:44] We want to make sure there's alignment of vision, but you better still have that. Otherwise it's probably not for you if you want to stay a leader and then coupling that with hunger and a desire to win and change and improve as ahead of probably where changes in the world are happening. Those are so important.

[00:20:01] As you said, it's the most important part of building a company is the people. And so I think you summed that up so well. And I really liked also. That with the market factors, so many people will try to push a rock uphill or divert a stream to go up the mountain. Whereas like, no, go where water is flowing easily.

[00:20:21] Cause if you don't have product market fit, if you're having to forage your customers to take your product, if the markets aren't growing with you, it's going to be a slog and so design your businesses in a way that go downhill.

[00:20:34] Trent Hickman: Exactly.

[00:20:34] Sean Mooney: You want to be skiing with the mountain, not up it.

[00:20:37] Trent Hickman: Exactly.

[00:20:39] Sean Mooney: And then don't only have one way to win, because if that doesn't work, game's over.

[00:20:42] And so I love that. That was really, really well said. I think it's great advice for anyone who wants to be in the business of business building. Hi, Commerce School of Business listeners. Sean here. Wanted to shine another quick spotlight on one of the most important ways PE firms preserve and create value.

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[00:22:01] So Trent, maybe next, I'm curious, you've found a business where you've got management alignment, you've got the market factors at work. You've got multiple ways to win. How does VSS now kind of approach value creation and what resources are you all offering to support these portfolio companies that are on their journey?

[00:22:26] A

[00:22:28] Trent Hickman: few things there, and just to give everyone in the audience some context, I'd mentioned we're currently a 530 million fund overall, about a billion AUM. So in private equity land, I might call that kind of the awkward teenage years. We're sort of big enough to have real problems and through those problems, real opportunities from an operating perspective.

[00:22:53] But we're not a Blackstone or a KKR that can have 50 different operating partners with incredible specialization in each. And so today we have not employed an operating partner model, but it's something that as competition has been increasing, we are increasingly aware that We need to add more value in our next fund than we did our last fund if we want to have the same Degree of success from a returns money multiple etc.

[00:23:29] Point of view So we've taken the approach of trying to bring on What I would call very best of breed third party outside board members. I'll give you an example I've got a business operating in the entertainment focused payroll and production accounting software and services area. So the customers are big movie studios, production companies and so forth.

[00:23:58] When we first got involved, it was on the smaller end for us. So a lot of the typical, Hey, I'm 3 million Aviva Dom growing 2030 percent a year. I've definitely got product market fit. I've got. Some sales momentum, et cetera, but I'm starting to deal with larger customers than I've previously been used to and I'm also having some growing pains.

[00:24:24] So we were able to attract an outside board member, a woman who's a former chief human resources officer at Viacom and so she both had some of the HR expertise. Yeah, obviously very, very senior, very experienced in that area, but also really understood the serve market and even some of the buyers. And so we kind of compare somebody like that in that particular situation versus somebody who may have been kind of a typical retired CEO, good kind of general business person.

[00:25:06] Doesn't necessarily have that specialized expertise either in the HR or that particular niche serve market. So I would say in the significant majority of our investments, we'll try to find that needle in the haystack from a board perspective to add value in an area where we're just not going to have that kind of expertise.

[00:25:32] So that's one point. Number two, as you know, we've been a frequent customer of BluWave and we really love the model that you've built because it's a good fit for us in terms of, again, trying to add really targeted expertise that is particularly germane to that situation. So. You take something as simple as a market study, there are a lot of firms out there that do that kind of generically well, but if you take kind of that generalist firm versus a firm that's done three or four prior engagements in that space.

[00:26:15] Then they can be more efficient and they can also go deeper and add some perspective that kind of a generically smart group of people could start to get at, but truth be told, it's going to take them longer and may cost more, et cetera, and be a little bit less effective. And so for a lot of these situations, it's Yeah, we're trying to really get the benefit of somebody who's seen this movie three or four times before, as opposed to us, who may be coming into a situation a little bit cold.

[00:26:53] I think that the third big area is that. We've been very consistent in terms of the size of companies in terms of the situation of companies that we invest in. So again, a lot of founder led bootstrap businesses. A big part of our strategy is I would call it massive skin in the game. We do a combination of both majority control and minority investing, we're roughly 50 50.

[00:27:27] The key point to us is that the management team who were really relying on to bring home the bacon has an opportunity. To make more when we exit together versus when we invested with them. And so our philosophy is once the deal closes, that's great. Congratulations. Happy. You have your nest egg and so forth.

[00:27:53] Now let's go try to double that the next go around. So we're kind of focused on the future rather than, Hey, I got my deal done and I'm sort of heading to the beach. But they're literally or figuratively in their own mind.

[00:28:11] Sean Mooney: Yeah, I love what you share there and it lines so nicely with what you previously shared on your kind of personal scorecard.

[00:28:18] You can see the themes being consistent. And one of the other things I think you spoke about is something that we speak a lot about here as well is this concept of specialization and the value that it adds and trying to get as much as you can in that like Goldilocks zone. Cause when I was having this idea to start BluWave, it was just so hard because I was like, maybe in 1999 outcomes and market returns were good enough.

[00:28:46] And then the market got increasingly competitive and I would tell myself, and as I'm staring at the ceiling at three in the morning, like. Wow, I'm swimming in a sea of beta and I need to be an alpha. And I think what you're articulating so well is like, you're going to bring the exact resource you need in a specialized custom fit way versus trying to like square peg round hole things that was kind of good enough in 1999 wasn't easy, but it was still good enough.

[00:29:12] Trent Hickman: Yeah. It's really that combination of the pattern recognition. Hey, I've done 15 or 20 or 25 deals personally at this point, my firm's done a lot more than that. And what's a warning sign, what's an opportunity signal and the combination of seeing that opportunity or risk and then having a really thoughtful way to deal with that and hopefully turn what may be a risk or a potential pitfall into an area that Is ultimately a strike for the company and I think where you get the really big outcomes.

[00:29:58] It's frequently where you've solved a problem that was some kind of shortcoming to the business that maybe scared some others away that let you. Yes, get a good price. The initial trade does matter, but also it was something you knew the risk you were taking and you had a plan to address it. That was reasonable and practical.

[00:30:22] Sean Mooney: I think that's another kind of great mindset, this idea. I think so often in life, we get encountered with challenges and you can either do your best impression of an ostrich or you can run towards it and reframe it as opportunity. I think so well said and so important. So maybe with this kind of fluidity of business and life in mind, I'm curious, Trent, what are some of the pieces of advice that you and your colleagues are offering to your portfolio companies?

[00:30:51] To manage through a time where there's a lot of change and change is constant, right? It's one of the few constants we have, but it seems to be a little bit more of it these days. So what are some of the things that you're thinking and talking about?

[00:31:03] Trent Hickman: It's interesting because we've done a few deals recently that very much kind of fit into this theme of supporting private equity.

[00:31:15] And part of the initial thinking When I was introduced to the opportunities were, Hey, you're a target buyer for these services. Do you really need them? And can you very easily see why these would be important? And I'll give you a couple of examples. We invested in a company called lane four, which is ostensibly a Salesforce consultant.

[00:31:46] They're based in Toronto, Ontario. They focus within some of the higher value areas of salesforce. All that being said, there are a lot of salesforce consultants out there, and I'm sure pretty much everyone that's listening to this podcast has dealt with multiple ones of them. And I've found in our own portfolio that the quality of data we get out of salesforce and its usefulness In terms of understanding where are we really and what's the next quarter or next six months sales going to look like is of very questionable quality in many cases.

[00:32:29] And so what what kind of attracted us to this business was that their go to market and the real substance of the business is really as a revenue operations consultant and so they're focusing on not so much just the technology. The technology is just an enabler. It's how do we really address the problem?

[00:32:52] How do we really help the clients have good quality data? So part of that is a technical fix. And part of that is almost a change management bit of consulting. It's telling, I think that a number of their senior execs actually come out of that discipline and have been VP of revenue operations. Leading companies.

[00:33:16] So they're not approaching it from, Hey, this new tech widget is really cool. And I'd like to implement that. They're saying, I want better data. I want it more real time. And I want to be able to make decisions on that. And so that's actually a company. As you know, I'm very much looking forward to getting on to the BluWave platform and also really deploying across Our portfolio.

[00:33:46] So that's one we're excited about. A similar theme, a very different business orientation is a company called Treya that's already on the BluWave platform. And they are a boutique procurement consultant whose go to market is entirely private equity. And so they've built up a really nice track record with A bunch of private equity firms and kind of that one to 10 billion of AUM range and the return on investment for the private equity firm and the portco is super high.

[00:34:22] It's guaranteed and we've had some very good early successes with them as a customer. And so as we're kind of thinking about value creation. And where I'd like to take our firm is having one or two kind of best of breed solutions that are part of our playbook. Then we can kind of supplement that and get new ideas from a BluWave or introductions from friends where we've got a trusted third party that can say, Hey, this group's really good.

[00:35:02] So if you've got a situation where your salesforce data isn't what it's supposed to be, or You know that there are cost opportunities, but you can't quite put your finger on it and you don't have time to go run the procurement process yourself. Go with one of these groups. So we're trying to do more and more in that area.

[00:35:23] And obviously, we're a big believer in the need for these services, not only for our own portfolio, but also for investments, because we see both having a long term bright future.

[00:35:39] Sean Mooney: I appreciate once again, kind of the comprehensiveness of your thinking and your approach one. It's. How can we help others lift revenue, pretty important, and then optimize costs, right?

[00:35:51] Welcome to business. And I think you're thinking about it in exactly the right way. And I also like the way that you're thinking about it in terms of like any business builder out there, whether you're a private equity investor or in the C suite of a company, or someone who's an entrepreneur, resources like you're discussing.

[00:36:07] Are accelerants and these people have figured out the tricks and I'm sorry, you can probably in an unconstrained cost in time world, you could probably figure this stuff out, but welcome to life. You don't have time, so like, why not bring in an expert who has figured these things out so you can do it better, faster

[00:36:27] Trent Hickman: and, you know, it's just super fascinating about.

[00:36:31] Both these companies and obviously very different companies, although they're both, I think, best of breed at what they do is that. When you talk to customers and then when you refer them to others overwhelmingly it seems like the best management teams are the most embracing. So if you're the CEO and somebody introduces you to TREA and it seems like the strongest ones say, wait, you mean I can get two and a half or three times my money in year one plus the long term equity value pickup that Hopefully is 10x or more as an EBITDA multiple and I can get somebody else to do the work for me.

[00:37:17] Like, why wouldn't I do that? Or hey, I can remove all that frustration of having data that is either not very good or right before the board meeting, I'm having to go through and do this whole manual process to kind of clean it up. You mean I could just be able to. With my coffee each morning, pull up my Salesforce and say, wow, what a terrific day yesterday or bummer that wouldn't didn't close.

[00:37:46] Maybe I should get involved here. So we definitely kind of look for those opportunities both to invest in and to use for our portfolio where the reaction is, why wouldn't I do this? And, but those companies kind of fit that bill. By the way, we did have really outstanding experiences with our commercial due diligence providers that we've found on BluWave for each of those investments.

[00:38:16] Thank you for helping us get there on both of those.

[00:38:20] Sean Mooney: And thanks. That's kind of you to also share there. I would just kind of reiterate where I love the clarity of your thinking, Trent on this and going back to the original part of our conversation, where you're looking for managers that have not only vision, but a hunger to, and a desire and a willingness to change and embrace and improve with more speed and certainty.

[00:38:42] Kind of what you're articulating made me think back to like, even when I started this thing as a first time as an operator. And one of the things that I had had to get better at was this idea that I figured out we had to do everything ourselves and figure it out ourselves. And there was like valor in that.

[00:38:57] And what I found out that that concept was totally folly because you just can't, you know, sure I could have, but maybe. At the expense of twice the time or three times the time of what we were trying to accomplish. And when I finally kind of got over this whole thing, I'm like, it's okay to ask for help and then be, it's a weapon in a positive way, right?

[00:39:19] You can just force multiply yourself and get things done more speed, more certainty and bringing in the right resources. It takes them out an amount of humility. To do it is these humble kind of high integrity managers that figure that out earliest and they benefit from it. So glad you shared that.

[00:39:38] Trent Hickman: Yeah, happy to do it.

[00:39:40] It's important to do that in the right way. Sometimes our industry can have people that may be a little bit arrogant when they're bringing in a third party. It's maybe handled in such a way that can make management feel threatened as opposed to here's a force multiplier. My goal in life is to make your life better and here's a group that can take a little bit off your plate and hopefully provide a really big ROI and we all do better and hopefully have a little bit more free time as well.

[00:40:18] Sean Mooney: It's like that old proverb, you might go a little faster over a short period of time alone, but you're going to go a lot further together. So why not embrace that? And maybe speaking of this, like, journey kind of concept, one of the things I love to get from folks from you is kind of like, you know, what's some of the wisdom that you've learned over time?

[00:40:40] Really? And I ask these questions very selfishly, so I can just then continue to Frankenstein myself. But if you were to go back to your 22 year old self and give yourself a piece of advice that you wish you knew then, what would be maybe one of those things or some of those things?

[00:40:59] Trent Hickman: Yeah, well, I'd say a couple of things and that they kind of go together.

[00:41:03] And I've been thinking about this a lot. Recently, I've got a high school age daughter who's in the throes of the fable of junior year and all the pressures and where am I going to go to college and all the angst and agita that goes around that. And I think sometimes the process that we go through and most people in the private equity ecosystem, whether it's directly at a GP or a key service provider, investment bank, et cetera.

[00:41:35] Or high achieving people and we get into this kind of, I'll call it an assembly line mentality. I've got to have these grades and these scores in high school and go to that college and then I've got to get this internship and so forth. And there's kind of this impatience to get to the next thing and so much anxiety about it.

[00:41:59] Rather than being patient and saying, Hey, what do I really want to get out of this and what do I want to contribute to this beyond just moving up the next rung? And I think that kind of patience and really being open to those new experiences and what you can learn from those that kind of go beyond the next credential is just super important.

[00:42:27] And kind of related to that is really enjoying that journey, this whole ecosystem, whether it's the entrepreneurs, a lot of the specialized consultants and so forth that we've been talking about are incredibly accomplished, interesting, fascinating people. I'm kind of always amazed by the entrepreneurs that we work with and even some of the ones that unfortunately we didn't get the chance to work with.

[00:42:56] Where they had an idea that today may seem obvious and they encountered some kind of a problem in life and rather than just kind of whining about it, they decided to do something about it and having the opportunity to work with people like that and understand their stories and what drives them. If you can't have fun doing this, you can't really have fun in business is my view.

[00:43:30] So really taking the time to get to know people on a personal level, yes, you want to understand the business. You have to understand the business. You've got to do all the work, but we're fortunate in that we have a lot of control over who we work with and it just seems silly to me not to kind of take advantage of that just for fun.

[00:43:54] Sean Mooney: I love that. It's a great piece of advice and it really resonates. I think a lot of us are kind of cut from the same cloth where you have this unresistible blur and need to collect ribbons and badges and medals. And you're just proceeding from one almost imperceptible waypoint to the next and taking that moment to say, you know, You're so fortunate to be included and surrounded by some pretty amazing people.

[00:44:20] If you just take the moment to look left and right and maybe pause a bit.

[00:44:24] Trent Hickman: Right.

[00:44:27] Sean Mooney: So that's really a great piece of advice and kind of in keeping with our original part of our conversation about your role as a coach. One thing I in particular learned with my own kids who are probably cut from a similar cloth and they're kind of like blur that they're on is I've learned that would particularly from Teaching my kids how to ski.

[00:44:48] It's often better if I don't teach them. Get a coach. So I'll be sharing this clip in this episode with my kids. Because I think they're going to listen more to you than to me.

[00:44:58] Trent Hickman: Yeah, it's funny. I mean, there are a lot of parallels from coaching to working with CEOs or management teams and things like that.

[00:45:09] And where Sometimes people do need to experience things for themselves and that's okay.

[00:45:17] Sean Mooney: Yeah. Usually by the time I've learned a lesson three times, I've got it. But fourth

[00:45:22] Trent Hickman: time's a charm. There you go.

[00:45:24] Sean Mooney: All right, Trent. Well, this has been a really, truly kind of awesome conversation here. I appreciate you sharing really a bunch of things that I wish I knew before and I never did.

[00:45:36] And with that, that's an incredibly generous gift. So I want to thank you for taking the time and parting some of the lessons learned, the insights, the nuggets of wisdom here with us, I think they're all. Incredibly value added both now, but also over time. So thank you so much. Terrific. Well, thanks so much for having me.

[00:45:54] It was

[00:45:54] Trent Hickman: a real pleasure.

[00:46:05] Sean Mooney: That's all we have for today. Special thanks to Trent for joining. If you'd like to learn more about Trent Hickman and VSS, please see the episode notes for links. Please continue to look for the Karma School of Business podcast anywhere you find your favorite podcasts. We truly appreciate your support.

[00:46:22] If you'd like what you hear, please follow 5 Star Rate, review, and share. This is a free way to support the show and it really helps us when you do this, so thank you in advance. In the meantime, if you want to be connected with the world's best in class, private equity grade professional service providers, independent consultants, interim executives that are deployed and trusted by the best business builders in the world, including many hundreds of private equity firms, thousands of their portfolio companies, and you can do the same whether or not you're in private equity, Give us a call or visit our website at BluWave.net. That's B L U W A V E, and we'll support your success. Onward.

Private equity insights for and with top business builders, including investors, operators, executives and industry thought leaders. The Karma School of Business Podcast goes behind the scenes of PE, talking about business best practices and real-time industry trends. You'll learn from leading professionals and visionary business executives who will help you take action and enhance your life, whether you’re at a PE firm, a portco or a private or public company.

BluWave Founder & CEO Sean Mooney hosts the Private Equity Karma School of Business Podcast. BluWave is the business builders’ network for private equity grade due diligence and value creation needs.