Private Equity Spotlight: Building Marketing Excellence with Lisa Ames

[00:00:00] Sean Mooney: Welcome to the Karma School of Business, a podcast about the private equity industry, business best practices, and real time trends. I'm Sean Mooney, BluWave's founder and CEO. In this episode, we have an amazing conversation with Lisa Ames, a marketing operating executive with Norwest Venture Partners, enjoy.

[00:00:33] I'm super excited to be here today with Lisa Ames from Norwest Venture Partners. Lisa, thanks for joining. Thanks

[00:00:40] Lisa Ames: Thanks for having me, Sean. Good to see you again. It's been a minute since our time at PEI on that panel and really appreciate the invite.

[00:00:47] Sean Mooney: Absolutely. So if you hear some familiarity, Lisa and I were on a panel together and I was moderating and Lisa made it the easiest panel of all time because I just would throw her the ball and then just kind of duck away.

[00:00:58] So I was like, we got to get Lisa on the podcast here. And so here we are. So I'm super excited.

[00:01:06] Lisa Ames: Me too.

[00:01:06] Thanks.

[00:01:07] Sean Mooney: As we get ready to jump in, we're going to talk a lot about the world of kind of marketing and go to market and growth and digital and all these kind of fun things. But before we do this, I'd love to get more of the story of you.

[00:01:20] So Lisa, can you share kind of a little bit of your background, how you came up, how you got into this industry called private equity?

[00:01:26] Lisa Ames: You bet. Well, it was very unexpected. I am an operating executive at Norwest. Where I've been for five years coming up in March at the start of the pandemic is when I joined and when Norwest first reached out to me and they said, we want to build an operating partner program.

[00:01:41] Like I didn't even know what an operating partner was. I'm embarrassed to admit, but that was the truth. I grew up, I spent my career in baby SAS companies very much like the ones Norwest invest in. And so I think they were attracted to my background and in its relevancy to helping the portfolio companies.

[00:02:00] So prior to Norwest, I was VP of marketing at Lucidworks. Before that, I spent four years at Demandbase honing my ABM chops, and now, funny enough, Demandbase is in our portfolio through the Engage with Acquisition. And prior to that was in a marketing leadership role at a company called Cast Light Health.

[00:02:16] And so since Norwest invests in software, healthcare, and consumer, my background was relevant, and I think that's what made them want to recruit me. And then I think Potentially even more interesting was that my first language within marketing was demand gen and operations. And as you probably know, early stage companies, especially, but even later stage companies, these skills are really in demand.

[00:02:44] Sometimes the only language at first time CEO speaks is pipeline revenue sales. So my ability to come in, work shoulder to shoulder with our portfolio leaders I think was what made them want to make this investment. And we've since grown the team. It was just me for a while supporting more than 200 portfolio companies.

[00:03:07] And then over time hired Renee Cohen, who is my peer here at Norwest. And then David Rudnitsky, who is more of the sales side. So we're sort of the three legged go to market. A stool at Norwest. And so I think about what's my mission and my remit in this role is to help our companies at all stages. In the earlier stage, it's more partnering with founders, CEOs in designing their organizations for the future and marketing.

[00:03:40] So maybe for the next 18 Helping as an extension of our talent team at Norwest to fill those seats, get their first marketing leader in seat. But even before that, just really getting hands on with them, maybe helping them launch the company, announce the funding. So we really span a very kind of more advisory approach with a hands on let's roll up our sleeves, get in the mix and help these

[00:04:08] Sean Mooney: Yeah, I love that background and it's so representative.

[00:04:11] I think what PE has evolved into in a good way, right? It's the business of PE is turning into a business. And in order to do that, it means you're bringing in true practitioners who have been in the seat and bringing not only the strategy and the deal structuring and the kind of planning acumen, but also kind of the real true operational support.

[00:04:33] And we'll talk a little bit more about that later on in our conversation. I love the back end came in and so often we're seeing this serendipitous, like, I didn't even know what this thing was. And then it just kind of drew me to the next thing I know, I was like, here I am. And it's this great kind of situation.

[00:04:47] Lisa Ames: Yeah, it's so true. And I mean, if I had a dollar for every time I got a call from someone saying, how did you get into this role? I've told the story many times, but there's not a lot of these roles, but they're growing. And I think firms are making larger investments. Not only in more of like that CEO profile or consulting profile, but in functional experts who have done the work, who've been in the trenches and can work shoulder to shoulder with the portfolio leaders to drive better outcomes.

[00:05:16] Sean Mooney: Yeah. It's this whole deal where particularly where you're focused on is the name of the game. And that's not only technology, venture growth, more of the SAS companies, but also traditional companies growth, go to market. It's the highest correlate evaluation. So I love that you have that background, but you've sat in the seat and now you've jumped in really from kind of ground one also at Norwest and seeing it through,

[00:05:38] Lisa Ames: right.

[00:05:39] Trailblazing this role at Norwest. So yeah, I must be adventurous because. I was going into new territory and territory that wasn't developed in that particular context.

[00:05:51] Sean Mooney: Absolutely. Thinking about this as kind of this newness and unknown knowledge. One of the things that I love to ask is, what's something that we'd know you better if we knew this about you?

[00:06:01] So Lisa, what would be something that maybe gives a little more insight into who you are?

[00:06:05] Lisa Ames: I think you'd know me better if you knew why I call myself a business therapist. So if you go to my LinkedIn, it pretty much jumps off the page and I get a lot of questions about this. And it's something I developed at first kind of tongue in cheek, but where it came from is that one of the things I noticed as I started to engage with companies is sometimes they need reassurance that I'm not a spy.

[00:06:32] I'm not here to find all the things that you're doing wrong so I can go tell mom or dad. I'm really here to help. I'm just a marketer that loves to geek out with other marketers and drive better outcomes as a result of the partnership. So building trust as an operating executive is job one. It's something I put a lot of calories into when I'm first forging that initial relationship, that initial touch with the company, and it pays dividends.

[00:07:01] Because part of what I do in this role is work with CEOs, founders, CMOs, help them navigate complex business and organizational issues in marketing and actually beyond that. And what I started to notice is that These leaders were really relying on me, and it started to get very personal and deep in terms of I have this challenge.

[00:07:25] My organization is keeping me up at night. What am I gonna do? I have CEOs that call me on Sunday afternoon and say, Lisa, I really need to talk. And I think they do that because the trust was established on the front end. But also, I think they realize that I can come at problems from a different altitude.

[00:07:45] I'm not in their day to day. I'm a little bit less emotionally involved and I have a broader view with insight and access to a large number of companies. So I think I'm able to come at problem solving just from a different perspective. And so they'll confide these things in me. They'll say, I need help because the thing is you put yourself in the shoes of these leaders, who are they going to talk to?

[00:08:12] I can talk too. Their boss, because sometimes their boss is part of the problem. They can't go to the board for sure. They can't go to their team because they supposed to have it all together. It's supposed to be the inspirational leader. Can't talk to your spouse because your spouse is only going to take your side.

[00:08:30] Can't talk to a regular therapist because they don't have the business context. So you need a business therapist. So once I started putting all these pieces together, as I said, it was tongue in cheek initially, but it really started to click. And then I think the thread here is that there's such a big mentorship component to what we do as operating execs, regardless of our functional expertise.

[00:08:54] This is something that's really important to me and actually extends into my non professional life. I'm on the board of a nonprofit called Women in Revenue, and our mission is to support women and go to market roles. especially as they're rising in their careers. And so that provides another channel for me.

[00:09:13] We have a pretty robust mentorship program as part of our programming. So it provides another channel for me to help women give back to the community and extend this theme of mentorship that I bring to Norwest as well. So I really love it. And if you'll indulge me, I'd like to give a little shout out to the organization.

[00:09:35] One of the things we're trying to do is we Mentors is expand our reach to include men. Which is something I never thought of before until Udi Ledegore, former CMO of Gong, joined Women in Revenue as a mentor. So he's a men tor. And so I would invite any of your listeners to ping me on LinkedIn, because I would imagine many of your listeners are men in this industry.

[00:10:03] It is male dominated. But if they'd like to expand their purview, become a mentor for women in revenue, we'd love it.

[00:10:10] Sean Mooney: I love that. But particularly as you think about women in revenue, we'll be sure to include links to the organization as well as the leases. So check those out when you're interested and learn more about that organization.

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[00:10:45] Sean Mooney: Maybe going back to some of the things you said, Lisa, that jumped out to me and that I haven't really thought as much about is, it's well known that in a institutionally backed company, it's really lonely at the top in the CEO seat. Your board are basically your bosses like you gotta figure all these things out and it's tough in some ways to talk also with your functional unit heads and I've experienced that whereas when I was in P you're sitting on the board and you're like no confide with me but the executives want to really be able to show like no I've got it all figured out for good or bad and mostly bad it should be understood that it's like.

[00:11:21] Not everyone can do everything well, or they're the snowflake of snowflakes. But something that you're talking about here is also it's the functional unit heads where it's just as lonely for very much of the same reasons. And so having the ability to work with someone like yourself within an organization to soundboard things and figure things out and kind of like whiteboard it a little bit in game plan for someone who's been through it before is invaluable.

[00:11:46] And then similarly extending that not only within Norwest, but outside with women in revenue, creating those same sort of mentorship networks where it doesn't have to be so lonely. It doesn't have to be where you've got to like recreate the wheel for every moment of your career. I think it's just a great thing.

[00:12:04] Lisa Ames: And taking advantage of someone who has a broader purview with access to so many portfolio companies, that's valuable experience that our portfolio leaders can benefit from.

[00:12:16] Sean Mooney: It's interesting. It just caused me to reflect a little bit, but even I was thinking like when I was coming up in private equity, particularly in these organizations, they're really good, but like, you're kind of expected to know everything or at least fake it really well.

[00:12:30] I think I was a really good at faking it and then figuring it out, but landing on my feet just in case.

[00:12:36] Lisa Ames: I used to think that that was my biggest fear. Led to significant imposter syndrome when I joined the firm because I thought, Oh my God, all these companies are asking me all these questions and I'm supposed to have all the answers.

[00:12:48] And one of the first things I realized is that it's not my job to have all the answers. It's my job to seek the answers or to find someone that does have the answer. I just tell companies that now. Often on first meeting, I say, you know what, any question you have, please ask. I may not have the answer, but if I don't, I'll find someone that does.

[00:13:09] Sean Mooney: It's such a good insight because that was, I think, particularly when you're younger in your career or making a big kind of lateral shift, I think imposter syndrome is a great term where I was always like, Oh my God, are they going to find out, then you find out like, you know, it's going to be fine. And one of the things to your point.

[00:13:26] That's probably made the biggest difference in my mental health and career in life is this is learning to say three words. I don't know. And then, but I'm going to find out

[00:13:36] Lisa Ames: and

[00:13:38] Sean Mooney: as long as that's followed with, I'll figure it out. You're all good. And you're not expecting to know the world, but you can get to that.

[00:13:44] I'll find out a lot better when you make the world a smaller place and have mentors both within the operating teams. Like you within these business networks. And so I just think it's a great thing to talk about. And it's like, how do you make a world smaller place and do more of the we versus like, try to do it all yourself and take on the pressure of the world on your shoulders.

[00:14:03] And maybe as we go to the next part of our conversation here, one of the things I always love to ask people like you, Lisa is kind of what's your yardstick. You've been in a lot of top companies and leadership roles. You're now with a really excellent top. investment firm, you get to see a lot of elements of value within a company.

[00:14:25] And so Lisa, I'm curious, what are some of the traits that you look for when you think about this is a really good business or as important in many ways, can, should, and will be a really good business?

[00:14:37] Lisa Ames: Well, I would say a couple of things that have been consistent themes throughout my career. The first is ruthless prioritization.

[00:14:47] Sean, there's always more ideas than can be executed. And As marketers, I think we have it even tougher because nobody goes into CFO's office and says, Hey, I have an idea that we should execute for how to optimize our finance function. But almost everybody feels that they can do that with a marketer. We all fancy ourselves as marketers.

[00:15:08] And so I think as go to market leaders, we have to be hyper judicious about how we allocate resources and budget. And from a CFO perspective, we're always like the cost center as it is, or perceived as such, right? We have the biggest budget. And so when I see. Companies trying to spread that peanut butter too thin from a marketing perspective, trying to penetrate too many segments, maybe testing too many channels at once with limited budget.

[00:15:38] And then they wonder why they're not gaining awareness in the market, why they're not leading their category, why they're not driving new logos. I see this a lot, of course, not with our portfolio, but like in my past, I've seen companies struggle to make those tough decisions. About where to prioritize, it must be pressure from within.

[00:15:59] Maybe it's perceived pressure from the board, but it's like, we got to do more. We got to do faster. We got to do better. We got to spread the net wider. And I'm a fan of let's zero in on something that we can master. And once we master that thing, then we can fan out from there. And so to your question, I think the companies that can prioritize and especially the marketing teams that can prioritize, make the tough decisions, say no, potentially more than what they say yes to those kinds of companies, those kinds of leaders are in the best position to succeed.

[00:16:35] Sean Mooney: That's a really good one there, and maybe to double tap on that is, if you think about marketing right now, there's so many channels available to market, and there's different types of marketing, there's brand marketing, there's performance marketing, there's content marketing, you're doing all these different kind of attributes, and you really can Do it all.

[00:16:54] And then when you overlay the big question, which has always been in the world of marketing, is attribution. What role did you play? It's like the old line, like, I know half my marketing's working, I just don't know which half. And then it used to be that, well, now you can really find in digital, like, you can connect these things.

[00:17:10] But now there's all these, like, half the time, all the email things don't even enable cookies, so you don't know who's really even opening your emails. So you can kind of do everything. So how do you think about in this kind of constant, almost like cat and mouse changing game of marketing and not only the number of tools that are available to you, but, but also like, how do you measure effectiveness?

[00:17:31] How do you really look for that focus?

[00:17:34] Lisa Ames: Certainly from a board perspective, it's all about creating predictability in the business. And so if you can zero in as a marketer on the one or two channels that are your workhorses. And the one or two strategies and one or two audience segments, I think you're in a much stronger position to win because you're going to test and learn with that smaller purview.

[00:17:56] And then you're going to, as I said, fan out from there too often. I see companies, like I said, wanting to spread the peanut butter so thinly. And of course the attribution piece has always been a challenge. We've been talking about attribution since I was a little girl in marketing, which was a long time ago and nobody's really figured it out.

[00:18:18] So, I mean, yes, we have tools to do it, but you still have sales and marketing wars and fighting over who did what and not to get too deep into marketing here, but I'm always a fan, especially coming from demand based. That like we win together or we lose together. And so sales and marketing has to be in lockstep.

[00:18:35] They have to be aligned on metrics, goals, audience, like messaging. And there shouldn't be any such thing. And this is something I feel strongly about as a marketer and given the opportunity, thank you for the platform, Sean. I will say that if there's any deal that was ever close in the history of SAS and probably any business for that matter, that didn't have sales and marketing, both heavily involved.

[00:19:00] You show me one deal where sales did everything or marketing did everything. And granted, if it's a full like product led growth motion, maybe that's different. Or if it's a transactional high velocity sale, that's all done online. Maybe there's edge cases here, but when you're talking about an enterprise sale, there's no such thing as this one we're going to attribute to sales or this one we're going to attribute to marketing.

[00:19:25] Sean Mooney: It's so wise because it's like you said, attribution has always been the question. And so. Really good companies what they do is like they use the word and not or it's not sales comma marketing Yes, it's sales and marketing. They're symbiotic with each other. They go together One is doing one thing in support of the other and they kind of in orbit around each other

[00:19:45] Lisa Ames: Well, and my friend John Miller talks about like being a team and you're not gonna say well the goalie in a soccer environment won the game because there were so many other assists, there were so many other players.

[00:20:00] So I like that team analogy as well for helping folks realize you can't pin a deal on one organization.

[00:20:09] Sean Mooney: I think that's very well said, and for listeners, like, listen to what Lisa has to say here. This is spot on. Hey, as a quick interlude, this is Sean here. I wanted to address one quick question that we regularly get.

[00:20:23] We often get people who show up at our website, call our account executives and say, Hey, I'm not private equity. Can I still use BluWave to get connected with resources? And the short answer is yes. Even though we're mostly and largely used by hundreds of private equity firms, thousands of their portfolio company leaders, every day we get calls from every day top proactive business leaders at public companies, independent companies, family companies.

[00:20:48] So absolutely, you can use this as well. If you want to use the exact same resources that are trusted and being deployed and perfectly calibrated for your business needs, give us a call, visit our website at BluWave. net. Thanks back to the episode.

[00:21:06] What's maybe one other thing that you look for in a company as you're kind of saying, is this going to be a Norwest type business that we can really help get to the next level?

[00:21:14] Lisa Ames: I look for patterns. I've been at the firm for about five years. I've seen companies come into the portfolio, exit the portfolio.

[00:21:21] And the other thing that I see as an indicator of success is Inspirational leadership. I think a lot of people would agree with me, but maybe for a different reason is that I feel markets evolve. Technology moves quickly. Demand for skill sets comes and goes. But what matters the most and what's given rise to most of my success in my career is the The ability to hire and inspire to marshal resources work collaboratively across functions and the real meat of leadership is influence.

[00:21:58] So sure, if someone reports to you, you can tell them what to do. But you're better off influencing them and influencing the people that don't report to you to want to do the work, to want to retire. And when I've seen companies fail, often there's a toxic leader on the executive team. Very often it's the CEO who's been allowed to forsake inspirational leadership in favor of revenue growth.

[00:22:30] And it's not sustainable. It won't work. So my advice to leaders is surround yourself with people that know more than you and listen to them without ego. And to me, like when I see that growth mindset in a leader, I know we have almost everything of what we need for that company to be successful because we wouldn't have invested if we didn't believe in their value prop.

[00:22:59] And done our diligence around the competitive landscape. So we're really largely banking on the strength of the leadership in the organization and it's time tested.

[00:23:11] Sean Mooney: It's another really good point, Lisa. And as I look at kind of a, the demand patterns that come in here, and so hundreds of private equity firms, thousands of portfolio companies, and.

[00:23:21] Today, nearly one in two projects would like to get in the people part right. And a lot of times it's the CEO, because they just weren't able to do exactly so. They weren't able to build a team. And one of the things that I even experienced personally, you learn Not only in PE that you can't do it on your own, and it's about inspiring and working with and persuading and listening to your executive teams at your portfolio companies.

[00:23:45] It's the same thing when you're starting a company. And I think probably a lot of the challenges, and even just to personalize my own challenge, I started a business here eight years ago after PE. Talk about a crazy decision, you know,

[00:23:59] Lisa Ames: like,

[00:24:00] Sean Mooney: I mean, it's the hardest thing I've ever done, but by far the best thing I've ever done,

[00:24:05] Lisa Ames: I believe you,

[00:24:07] Sean Mooney: it was like in the beginning, you're trying to keep burned down and you're just bringing like the smartest but youngest and people that you could kind of bring in and you're trying to do it all yourself.

[00:24:18] And then relatively quickly you realize your back is breaking and you there's no way you will scale.

[00:24:24] Lisa Ames: It's impossible.

[00:24:25] Sean Mooney: And it's like a year without a day off. And then finally, I think most founders go through this story and they're probably better at it now than they were. My only choice is to bring in really good people and trust them to do their job and empower them to do their job and then bring common goals that we're all kind of rowing towards that was a changing point, not only in the business, because then it just took off, but it's also mental health where I was just like, Oh my God, you can kind of breathe.

[00:24:53] And so by the time they get to you, I imagine they're kind of, they worked through a lot of that, but you're going to take them to even loftier heights. Yeah.

[00:25:01] Lisa Ames: I hope so, but it's really to me about staying curious. You surround yourself with these people on your team. You've got to trust in them, but it doesn't have to be blind trust.

[00:25:12] You can ask the right questions and say, well, tell me how you got to that conclusion and that recommendation. And I think that curiosity can go take leaders a long way. I always say like, be a learner, not a knower.

[00:25:25] Sean Mooney: I love, love, love that. It's a great line. Being curious about the way the world works to get you a long way and will continue to get the long way because By the way, we all live in a three dimensional chess game, right?

[00:25:38] You might have it right for a period in time But then everything changes around you and if you're not curious about and reacting to it

[00:25:44] Lisa Ames: Well, then you realize the more questions you ask how little you really know So I think that humility can go a long way in Motivating the people around you I knew the most When I was 21,

[00:26:00] my children are telling me that now they're reconfirming that, you know, more than you'll ever know when you're 21. And then you realize as time goes on how little you actually do know. And hopefully that gives rise to that curiosity we've been talking about.

[00:26:14] Sean Mooney: Yeah. It's like just when I feel like I figured the world out, I'm getting flanked by something.

[00:26:19] Lisa Ames: Oh yeah.

[00:26:19] Sean Mooney: So let's turn the page here. And one of the things I'm really interested to learn more about is How is Norwest approaching value creation? What are some of the resources that you're bringing to support your portfolio companies and your partners along this journey that we've been talking about?

[00:26:37] Lisa Ames: So our general ethos around value creation just as a thematic is that we take an invited guest approach. And I think of this as a pull model versus a push model. And It's a real differentiator for Norwest because even though we have control positions in many of our companies, we don't force ourselves in and tell them, here's a playbook, you've got to execute it.

[00:27:03] This is the way it's going to roll. And we do that for a reason. It's just part of our, as I said, our ethos, like our value system. We're known for our work ethic, our dedication to helping our portfolio companies over the long haul through all the ups and downs of company building. And it's not just the what, but it's the how we go about it.

[00:27:25] I actually led the rebrand of the firm in 2023 and went through a very robust discovery process as you can imagine, to get to the insights, like the real nuggets of what does this brand represent? And what we heard time and time again from the portfolio CEOs that we interviewed, but even a few that didn't take money from us, they all reflected back to us that Norwest There's a humanity and a humility to the way we go about working with our portfolio companies.

[00:27:55] We don't come in saying we have all the answers. We bring a lot of experience to bear, a lot of knowledge, expertise, and a broader view with a large portfolio, but we're in the trenches with our companies working shoulder to shoulder. And actually I had a CEO tell me, cause I said, well, why did you take money from Norwest?

[00:28:17] It's a commodity. And he said, you know, talk to a lot of venture firms in the valley and they all anchored to how smart they were. And he said, and I figured, well, everyone's smart. Like what else you got? And he said, I felt in the end that Norwest would have my back and he was a young founder. And so that really mattered to him.

[00:28:40] And I think it matters to founders at any stage. And so when I think about the concept of invited guests and why it's such a differentiator because We're not like just the guests that show up to the dinner party with a bottle of wine that we fetched on the way. We're the guests that clear the table and do the dishes and stay to the bitter end.

[00:29:05] And I think that really represents like who we are, what we value and why we're different. So then in terms of your question about resourcing, we're lucky we have a large platform supporting, you know, over 230 active portcos. We've got 20 plus members of the portfolio services team. Spanning go to market.

[00:29:24] So there's myself, David Renee, as I mentioned, we have a talent team, got HR, capital markets, MNA, legal and operations, and then augmenting that. We have a whole bench of senior advisors to fill in, in areas of expertise, maybe where we're lacking or just where we need additional resources. So I feel like we're really lucky being being a part of this organization, but it also serves our companies well to feel like they've got the support that they need.

[00:29:56] Sean Mooney: I love the invited guest terminology. First of all, it's just like You're getting invited in because you're the good kind of guests. You're coming in and you're there to help, not to judge or instruct. As we talked earlier, like I think private equity, growth, equity, venture capital. They're the ultimate team sports.

[00:30:14] Your interests are aligned, right? If everyone does well, everyone will do well. But if you're not working in motion with each other. Then it's easy for that system to kind of become unhinged and then bad things happen. And so the way that you're doing, I think is exactly the right way. It's like, we're going to give you every opportunity and the resources you need for us all to be successful.

[00:30:36] We're not going to force it on you if that's part of the area where you don't need help either. Right?

[00:30:40] Lisa Ames: Yeah. We want to let the founders keep their hands on the reins. It's their company. They conceived of it, they built it, and then we're here just to take them to the next level as a thought partner, a mentor, and a friend sometimes.

[00:30:56] Sean Mooney: Yeah. And a therapist. I like that. So Lisa, if we were to maybe move on to maybe the next chapter of our conversation here, I'm curious to really learn more about what are some of the top value creation opportunities that you are kind of thematically engaging with your portfolio company leaders these days?

[00:31:16] Lisa Ames: Well, Sean, I have a fairly in depth intake process that when I get first get introduced usually through the investment team to a portfolio company, I ask them all kinds of questions. So what's the state of the business? What was your exiting 2023 ARR, for example, what's your plan for 2024 deal size and velocity, primary sales motion, competitive landscape, all that stuff.

[00:31:42] And what I find fairly consistently. Is that all roads lead to one of a few areas where there's opportunity for me to lean in and make an impact in marketing. And those areas are first ICP development and or refinement. And I'll double click into that messaging lead life cycle. We'll put an underscore under that one.

[00:32:08] That one's big. And then just really optimizing your own channels. So in terms of ICP development, I mean, that's the lowest hanging fruit. Obviously it's like sort of first order of business, ideal customer profile, like What kinds of companies are you selling to? And I'll tell you, Fortune 2000 is not an ICP.

[00:32:30] I hate to break it to any founder listeners that are on the line here, but that's not an ICP. I mean, that's a start, but it's like, What else you got, like what verticals, what size, firmographics, technographics, psychographics. What do we know about these companies? And there's so many tools available now, luckily, especially with AI to help companies refine that list of target accounts.

[00:32:59] Again, going back to what we talked about earlier, and I say this with an ABM lens, Start small because you can always expand it, but Really clinch, really nail that first set of customers. And I'd also say the importance of documenting that ICP sometimes, especially in earlier stage companies, it's like, great.

[00:33:22] I got it. This is who you're targeting. It sounds great. Can you send it over for my records? And so I can dig into it a little bit more. And every once in a while, the founder says, Oh, it's in my head, but we know it. My co founder and I, we know it really, really well. And we got it nailed and I'm like, well, that's fine.

[00:33:40] But as you grow and you're trying to onboard salespeople in particular and marketers, it's going to need to be documented. So that's one of the first rocks we look under hand in hand with that is messaging. Getting it really crisp for your key segments and then being able to help build a business case as companies start to reach into the C suite.

[00:34:02] So sometimes companies will say, oh, you know, we're going after all these different segments and then maybe their primary buyer is like a director of security, for example, and then we start to shift the conversation toward well, all right. You got the director of security on board. So then how are you making the business case to the CFO and the CEO and using language leads to issues that they care about business drivers.

[00:34:30] And so it's really fun for me to have those conversations, identify the opportunities, and then as an operating exec, actually get in the trenches and help either by. introducing the company to additional resources like agencies or contractors, or sometimes just getting my hands on a keyboard and saying, here, let's take it this direction.

[00:34:54] Let's crisp it up. Let's make sure there's a match to the segments that you're targeting.

[00:34:59] Sean Mooney: So if you have your ideal customer profile, now you're onto messaging, do you have any kind of life hacks? And like, here's how you should think about Developing, refining that messaging that appeals to these ideal customers that you've identified.

[00:35:11] Lisa Ames: Well, I always like to go back to the customers you already have and say, like, what was it? What was the thing that got you through the door? Because that may have evolved as your product has evolved. And so I think it's really important just in terms of hack is like really staying vigilant about it's never a one and done, like what's the market doing?

[00:35:34] What are our customers have that needs evolved of the market and our customers. And so how can we continuously tweak and test and refine that message to make sure it's on point? Yeah,

[00:35:45] Sean Mooney: I think it's spot on. It's one of the many, many, many things I learned early on is you think you know what your customers want, but if you have the audacity to ask them, they'll tell you.

[00:35:59] You got your ICP, you got your messaging. What's kind of the next on the list?

[00:36:04] Lisa Ames: So I love to say all roads lead to lead lifecycle. And for listeners who are unfamiliar with that term, it's really. Establishing your stage definitions. Like what's an MQL at this company? What's an SQL? Like, how are we measuring that?

[00:36:19] How are we tracking conversion and velocity all the way through the funnel? How are we ultimately creating predictability for the business? And this is the linchpin for predictability, because if you can't track and measure all of these things through the funnel. Or if sales has got one set of data and marketing's got another, and they're both telling two different stories, especially to the board, you are finished.

[00:36:44] And sadly, and this is not just true for some of the companies I've interacted with in Norwest that I've been a part of throughout my career is sometimes before someone realizes that lead lifecycle is a thing and we really need to invest in it, they're so far down the path that. They've got technical debt to then unravel and data to pull apart and put back together like Humpty Dumpty.

[00:37:10] And I always say to companies, invest early and often in lead lifecycle and your operations function, because it's really the foundation for measuring, tracking, reporting and creating predictability throughout the customer lifecycle.

[00:37:27] Sean Mooney: And really kind of curious is you mentioned that as you think about equipping your portfolio companies with marketing and or sales operational support, do you tend to look at that as the same function that's looking at both streams or do you think about in a perfect world?

[00:37:40] They're different.

[00:37:41] Lisa Ames: There's a lot of varying opinions on that, but I think of like a rev ops function, for example, would include. sales ops, marketing ops. And so I like that construct because I'm a big fan of the two organizations working together. But regardless of how you structure it, you've got to get those two organizations reporting on the same set of metrics, the same data and pulling from preferably the same data sources for a single version of truth.

[00:38:11] But I'm always amazed at I say, well, what's Your conversion, right? And they either don't know or they are one side of the streets giving a number and another side is giving another. Another thing I've seen is and are your listeners should try this interview. Ten people at your company and say, Hey, What's the definition of an SQL or an MQL at this company?

[00:38:34] If you interview 10 people, you'll probably get eight different answers. And that's usually a sign that you haven't invested in lead lifecycle and that you should do so immediately.

[00:38:46] Sean Mooney: I got to make a call. Hang on.

[00:38:52] Lisa Ames: I can wait.

[00:38:53] Sean Mooney: I'll be right back. Okay. All right. I'm back. So you've got the ICP, the messaging, the lead life cycle. Have you kind of understood that? Is there anything else that you're looking at kind of within this mix?

[00:39:05] Lisa Ames: I mentioned optimizing your own channels. So another sort of diagnostic that I go through as I'm getting to know companies.

[00:39:13] And again, I'll say, I'm not there to find all the things you're doing wrong. And so I can go tell mom or dad, but I do a diagnostic because I want to understand where the opportunities are. Like, where's the white space? Where can I lean in and help this company to drive better outcomes? Okay. So another rock I look under is what are they doing with their own channels?

[00:39:30] Cause very often, especially at earlier stage companies or companies with a under professionalized marketing organization, the first language they speak or that they want to speak is paid ads. Well, we got like our LinkedIn ads. We got our Google ads. That's it. Right. And that's important. You've got to develop upstream awareness as part of your brand building efforts, but I'm always amazed at.

[00:39:56] How little energy they put into optimizing their own channels. So, like, I look at their LinkedIn feed and it's like, Oh, they post here and there, but nothing that's super helpful or valuable or positions them as an authority in their space. And then I say, well, do you have a webinar program? Oh, we do them once in a while.

[00:40:17] And okay, well. Then when you do get webinar leads, are you calling them as soon as they register? Are you waiting until after the tactic? Oh, well, we wait till after, and then sometimes we only call the ones that raise their hand and say they want a demo, things like that, like where it's just low hanging fruit.

[00:40:36] And for example, and I had a company validate this recently, which was a huge win. We said, well, what happens if we start calling on leads as soon as they register for the webinar versus right after, because many companies it's logical, like, Oh, we'll wait till after the webinar occurs and then we'll chase those leads.

[00:40:55] I got to the same metric several years ago at demand base, but it's 30%. Meaning if you were going to get 10 opportunities from a single webinar tactic and you started calling those leads, as soon as they register, you're going to get. 13 or whatever, whatever you would have gotten seven. Now you got 10 because of just that one little tweak to your process.

[00:41:16] So that's what I mean about optimizing. It's like, there's all this low hanging fruit out there that maybe you're not taking advantage of that can really move the needle. And so these are things are like SEO. It's not dead just because AI has changed search results. And so really coaching companies on like, this is now more important than ever.

[00:41:38] Don't take your foot off the gas. Generic approaches like what is and how to or dead. And they were probably on live support from the beginning. And there are better options available to you to win big in this area that frankly, other companies aren't taking advantage of. So if you do a few tweaks, make a few optimizations, partner with the right resource, you can really move the needle.

[00:42:03] And again, as the example I just gave in a webinar context, 30 percent is not a small number.

[00:42:08] Sean Mooney: It's huge. This is a great point. We live in an explosion of content in the world today. You can't just be buying ads. You got to be doing almost everything to the extent you can in thoughtful ways. Like we said earlier, you don't want to spread your peanut butter too thin, but if you're not owning certain channels and the world changes, you don't have a foothold to kind of like get your own messaging out there.

[00:42:33] Lisa Ames: Well, especially now, right? Because companies have stress on the budget. They have to do more with less. Everyone's been talking about that for two years. And so if you're not maximizing and optimizing channels that don't cost you money, if you've got a decent sized database and you've got your social channels, like that doesn't have to cost you money.

[00:42:58] That shouldn't be the only place you play because as we talked about, you need to develop awareness, top of funnel. But you should be squeezing every ounce of juice out of those channels that you own that don't cost you before you start moving on to other things. I guess this ties back to that bigger theme we've been talking about with the peanut butter.

[00:43:19] There's a temptation to do too much, spread too thin, execute in too many channels, and then you dilute your results. And where I see companies get in trouble is. Let's say they didn't put enough effort or energy or investment into a specific channel. So they get one or two leads and they conclude that the channel is ineffective and they cut it off.

[00:43:42] And then folklore in the future is like, Oh, we tried that and it didn't work. That's such a limiting belief and way to go about marketing.

[00:43:52] Sean Mooney: Yeah. It didn't work at first. And so, but you got to like take a right turn and a left turn, a right, right, left. They do like, the point that you made as well is like, but if you're going to do it, you're going to invest that as one of your areas that you're putting your chips on the board on.

[00:44:05] Monetize it. It's like, do something about it. Take action. Be fast. Don't let it kind of wither. If it just sits on that vine, eventually it kind of goes away. And so you got to go and if you're going to invest in your own channels, I really like your point. Like, call them right when they register. Don't wait till afterwards or don't demur and not reach out to them.

[00:44:25] Right.

[00:44:26] Lisa Ames: And overall advice would be to start small in a segment most likely to buy from you, the customers that love you, and with a set of channels that has served you well in the past, for example, and then nail that fan out from there.

[00:44:42] Sean Mooney: Wonderful knowledge for our listeners. Listen to what Lisa says.

[00:44:47] Lisa Ames: Any marketers are aspiring marketers.

[00:44:50] Sean Mooney: A hundred percent is we kind of bring our conversation full circle here. I'm a connoisseur of other people's wisdom that then I Frankenstein onto myself, because as we've talked about earlier, if it were up to me knowing how the world works and having figured it all out, I'd be in a lot of trouble. But if you were to go back to your 22 year old self and give yourself a piece of advice that you wish you knew then, what might be one of those things that you would share?

[00:45:19] Lisa Ames: I would say don't underestimate the power of networking and community building. As an introvert, this hasn't always come naturally or easily for me. And I used to tell myself when I was given this advice, which of course I didn't listen to it, was, but that's just not me and I have to honor who I am. And what I came to realize is that it wasn't me yet.

[00:45:45] And I mean, Sean, you built a business on this. Your whole business is about connecting companies to valuable resources and people that can solve very real business problems. And so you understand this probably better than anyone and potentially you'd agree with me on this. But, and I think even in the context of my role at Norwest, one of the first things I realized was like, One of our key value creation levers is our extensive network and our access to resources.

[00:46:16] And it's not just about having a list. But it's about knowing the core wheelhouse of those resources and what they're really good at, what they not so good at, and what are their parameters and what kind of companies do they want to work with? And so I spend a good percentage of my time nurturing my existing network, expanding in my network and my secret hack that I'll share with just between us is, and I got this from Warren Packard of the AI fund, who was a college buddy.

[00:46:49] He was at DFJ for a number of years. And when I first got into this role, I was like, well, what advice would you give? And he said, I take at least one meeting a week for which there's no obvious or immediate benefit to me or my firm. And I thought, I'm going to try that. Cause we get a lot of inbound in these roles.

[00:47:08] Like everybody wants to sell into private equity for good reason. So I thought, well, I'm going to try that. And I'll tell you what it has always led to some benefit down the road. Sometimes Within a couple of weeks, sometimes a couple of months, sometimes a couple of years, but none of those meetings that I took for which there was no apparent or obvious benefit, none of those led nowhere.

[00:47:33] Like, it was always something where I could, like, help a portfolio company or help a friend, or I could help them down the road, even though I couldn't that day. And so that's something that I've stayed really true to and has paid huge dividends to me, even in a personal context. I recently moved to New York City after spending my whole adult life in the Bay Area.

[00:47:59] And I just said, power the network. So I just started calling people I know and said, Hey, who do you know in New York? And you actually introduced me to a couple of people and who do you know in New York? And I have made in two months, like over 50 connections with people who are willing to like, go to coffee with me who have become friends and, or budding friends.

[00:48:22] And who said, Oh, you got to meet this person and that person, and it's just been a huge windfall and something that has given me a lot of personal gratification.

[00:48:33] Sean Mooney: I think that's such timeless, but also comprehensive advice. People are kind of surprised by this, but I, I'm terribly shy, like really introverted.

[00:48:43] And it used to be like, I was in a big family and my dad would make me order like, last minute Sean, go find a reservation for eight and you got to talk your way into it. And it was like, make me like, want to just curl up into a ball. And, but I found like, in order to kind of be part of the world, you have to be part of the world.

[00:49:01] And it causes me to exert energy and it's depleting, but it's so important. And then what I kind of learned is it ultimately is energizing in some ways, it's the name of this podcast, right? It's like. If you do good things with and for good people, the world kind of spins in its own axis in the right direction, and ultimately takes a lot less energy.

[00:49:22] I didn't learn that either until way too late, is like, if you go out there, and particularly it works when you're not transactional, kind of as you shared.

[00:49:29] Lisa Ames: Right. You don't know where it's going to lead.

[00:49:32] Sean Mooney: Yeah, you're not keeping score. It's just, you're going to go, you're going to meet people, you're going to do good things for them.

[00:49:37] And then ultimately the energy fills you back up in a way that you're not counting, but it comes back and pays dividends. And so as someone who can appreciate what you did, I applaud you because that makes me like get really nervous just thinking, Oh my gosh, you got to meet 50 new people in two months.

[00:49:53] But once you go through it and it's kind of one at a time with coffee, you're like, this is great.

[00:49:58] Lisa Ames: Yeah, they don't all lead somewhere and they don't have to. But it's just about, like you said, creating that good karmic energy and going in with a mindset of like, I want to help and be helped. And it's something that I'm a huge believer of, huge fan.

[00:50:16] I'm calling all introverts as being one myself, like you can do this.

[00:50:22] Sean Mooney: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's great advice. I kind of went through some more things. After spending most of my full adult life in the New York area, then we moved to Nashville to start off the business really because of a market study and I took all the fun out of the process, but I was like, what are we going to go there on a spreadsheet?

[00:50:38] Like, yeah, you're gonna love it. One column says fun. And so, but same deal went through that exercise in a what I found was. If you've invested in relationships, people want to help you. So immediately I got introduced to so many great people here. And one of the things I really like about the culture here that I think exists in many places, but in particular here, there's an ethos in Nashville is whenever you meet with someone, A, they take the meeting and then B, it always ends with, what can I do to help you?

[00:51:06] And there's not a C, what are you going to do for me? And so I think what you described is such a good life mantra that, you know, If we had only been so lucky to learn this earlier, but we, I mean, hey, this is a royal way life would have been a lot easier. So I thank you for sharing that.

[00:51:25] Lisa Ames: Absolutely.

[00:51:26] Sean Mooney: Where were you when I was 22?

[00:51:27] So,

[00:51:30] Lisa Ames: well, like I said, my kids probably won't take this advice either, but I'll die trying.

[00:51:35] Sean Mooney: That's great. Well, Lisa, this has been a really fun conversation. I've learned all things I wish I knew before across the whole spectrum of our conversation, and so that's a really generous gift. I thank you for it, and thank you for spending some time with us today.

[00:51:49] Lisa Ames: Oh, it's my pleasure, Sean, and love spending time, and hope to see you again soon.

[00:52:04] Sean Mooney: That's all we have for today. Special thanks to Lisa for joining. If you'd like to learn more about Lisa Ames and NorWest, please see the episode notes for links. Please continue to look for the Karma School of Business podcast anywhere you find your favorite podcasts. We truly appreciate your support.

[00:52:19] If you like what you hear, please follow, five star rate, review and share. This is a free way to support the show. And if you find value in it, we really appreciate it as it really helps us when you do this. So thank you in advance. In the meantime. If you want to be connected with the world's best in class, private equity grade, professional service providers, independent consultants, interim executives that are deployed and trusted by the best business builders in the world, including many hundreds of private equity firms, thousands of portfolio companies, and you can do the same, give us a call or visit our website at BluWave.net. That's B L U W A V E dot net, and we'll support your success. Onward.

Private equity insights for and with top business builders, including investors, operators, executives and industry thought leaders. The Karma School of Business Podcast goes behind the scenes of PE, talking about business best practices and real-time industry trends. You'll learn from leading professionals and visionary business executives who will help you take action and enhance your life, whether you’re at a PE firm, a portco or a private or public company.

BluWave Founder & CEO Sean Mooney hosts the Private Equity Karma School of Business Podcast. BluWave is the business builders’ network for private equity grade due diligence and value creation needs.