Private Equity Career Paths From Associate to Partner

Lloyd Metz: [00:00:00] Get ready to peer behind the curtain of the private equity universe with each episode of best but Never Final. Hi, I'm Lloyd Metz, joined by Doug McCormick and Sean Mooney. Together we'll navigate the corridors of private equity revealing the uncommon knowledge, challenges, successes, and lessons that drive the world of private equity and business forward.

Let's go.

Sean Mooney: It is great to be back with Doug and Lloyd. Lloyd and Doug. How are you guys?

Lloyd Metz: Good, Sean. Good Sean, how about you? Doing great. How you doing, Doug?

Doug McCormick: I'm good. Great time of year in DC Beautiful fall. I'm dating myself, but that's okay. It's always a good time to be Doug. That's what I know.

Lloyd Metz: I wanna be like you when I grow up, Doug.

Doug McCormick: Oh [00:01:00] yeah. Are you guys gonna ask me for money now, Doug? Of course.

Sean Mooney: When do I not? You go on the coolest trips. I just wanna go on one of your trips. That's all I know.

Doug McCormick: Yeah,

Sean Mooney: it's like someday I wanna invite

Doug McCormick: for the record. I don't go on the coolest trips.

Sean Mooney: Pretty good segue. Watch this. Speaking of trips, let's talk about the trip of life in private equity today. And so the way points, the skills, the traits that you need to navigate through a career in pe from associate to vice president, to principal to partner, et cetera. That sound like a good topic today.

Oh, wow. That's a meaty one. And Doug, can I get some props on the segue?

Doug McCormick: It was great. I I'm just, I'm silent. It was so good.

Sean Mooney: Why don't we talk about this from the lower and middle market perspective, which is gonna be pretty similar in general to larger cap, et cetera. There's gonna be some distinct differences as well, and we won't go into that, but we're gonna keep it mostly from this mindset, if that's okay with you guys.

Lloyd Metz: Yeah, that [00:02:00] makes sense.

Sean Mooney: All right, so let's talk about, the first job is you get into private equity, which is the associate, which is typically the second job in someone's career. And also the other thing I'll frame is this is really the deal team track that we're talking about. Typically, just to frame that, that we're not gonna get into before.

Associate, you've most often come through an investment banking program, maybe a management consulting program at one of these kind of top firms, and those naturally segue into investment banking. And so think about now you're looking at this new crop of associates that you're bringing in from one of these programs.

Let's start with the skills. What's the table stakes that these young professionals need in order to get into and be successful in that first job? In private equity,

Lloyd Metz: we can start with the modeling. Being able to model a business or a business function is super important, and so that's your table stakes with Excel [00:03:00] spreadsheets, making sure numbers tick and tie.

Make sure you can do your income statement, balance sheet, cashflow statement that they connect, they, they balance out balance sheets, balance like all of that. Understanding the relationship between the three parts of that financial model. Projections, understanding the business rationale, underlying projections, understanding how to decompose revenues and costs, some of those business basics and how they translate into a model.

You gotta start with that. I would say. Do you agree with that, Doug?

Doug McCormick: That whole description is reflective of somebody who actually did the job. Yeah, I totally agree with it. I'm gonna think about it in a slightly different way. So to me, in the early stage of the career, it's all about, what I'm gonna say is intellectual capacity and capacity for work.

And so for me [00:04:00] what that means is you're technically proficient, you're a good thinker, which is reflected in good writing, and you are a curious mind that can go deep on a topic. And then you combine that with being able to do that daily. Like every day you show up and you, you get a good day's work in.

And if you can kind of combine those traits with that capacity to do it consistently, I think that's a really good basis to be successful at that level.

Lloyd Metz: I'll agree wholeheartedly. You're taking it up a notch. Modeling, it was the entry point, now you're adding additional things. I liked your comment about a good thinker.

Does this make sense? Does this model make sense? Are the numbers that were being presented by the banker or the company, they were looking at their projections? Do they make sense? Like part of that to me is in that definition of good thinker. Sometimes it's just step back for a second and can you exercise just a little bit of judgment as to whether they make sense?

And a lot of that, I [00:05:00] think at the beginning of your career, needs to be rooted in the facts, rooted in the data for you to start to say, Hey Doug, I was looking at their projections. They seem a little aggressive, don't you think? You don't have to be super confident and definitive, but like paying attention.

And you know, as you said, being a good thinker I think is super critical.

Doug McCormick: I think in some ways, like one of the key attributes is the ability to synthesize a bunch of information and just flag what's gonna be important. The reality is that they're probably gonna spend the most time in the data room.

They're gonna spend the most time with. The direct company outputs. And so it's kind of wading through a lot of that to figure out what the rest of the team should focus on.

Lloyd Metz: Honestly, let's stick a pin in that. Love that word synthesis. And I actually think it is one of the harder parts of your private equity career journey because you need to develop some amount of skill to synthesize [00:06:00] data into something that's important.

And I think it actually gets more important as you go from associate to VP to principal to md. The ability to synthesize information is super critical, but let's stick a pin in it. One of the things I would add to your list or your perspective, Doug, is initiative. So you have the capacity for the work, you're a good thinker, you're consistent, you show up every day consistent.

That's super important. But initiative and reliability I think are two. I don't know if those are skills or if you just wanna call those attributes characteristics, but a good associate needs to have initiative and be reliable, dependable, reliable.

Sean Mooney: So maybe to put a pin on associates, if we think about, maybe break this up into skills and attributes.

So the skills from what I heard, is you gotta be able to do financial modeling. And so particularly leverage buyout models. In order to do that though, you really have to be proficient from a finance perspective. At double entry [00:07:00] gap accounting, you need to know how something moves through an income statement, balance sheet, cash flow statement that you'll get in one of these programs.

And you have to be able to, I think in particular, really be good at slicing and dicing revenue, profitability by product and customer, and know what those types of things mean to a business in terms of what drives growth, what drives cash flow, what drives profitability. And in PE in particular, I think you also have to be able to understand cash flow.

The cash flow statement that most people forget is probably one of the things that I always look at first. And often I'd look at the balance sheet in the cash flow statement, even sometimes before the income statement, just to see is a company creating cash? So those are like the skills you have to have.

What I really like what you're sharing is like the traits or the attributes. Are you curious? Are you a critical thinker? Do you have good judgment? Are you steady? And maybe one thing I'd add to that is like, do you have a strong work ethic? This is a tough job.

Lloyd Metz: I think that's what Doug meant by capacity for [00:08:00] work.

Yeah.

Doug McCormick: The reality is, as you think about like your peer group, everybody's pretty darn smart, right? So like you're in a pool, I don't wanna think about it as competition, but your peer group is generally, I think table stakes is, is you're gonna have the intellectual capacity. And so it's the curiosity and the work ethic that I think differentiate really good junior professionals.

Lloyd Metz: And to that point, you asked about skills. You take those attributes. One of the skills that I think a good associate also starts to demonstrate is finding information. You can call it research if you want to, but finding answers, finding information, that's an important skill to have. And in this current world that we're in, information is the most accessible.

It's been in probably the history of mankind. And so being able to answer basic questions about a company, an industry of market, a product that's available. And so when you combine that curiosity and that initiative and you have [00:09:00] reasonable research skills, you should be able to find information and answers to help the investment team move forward.

So I would add that to the list for sure.

Sean Mooney: Yeah, I like that. It's, you gotta be a sleuth, right? And you gotta do the next thing next, like that proactivity, intellectual curiosity powered by proactivity and next steps kind of a thing. The only other thing that I would say, like you have to start maybe developing, and this is going to your point about like you're in the data room, they're seeing all the primary data.

They kind of have to have at least the beginnings of a good BS meter or you're just kinda like, to your point, this doesn't make sense in that role. If you're just taking what's being shoved into a data room or disclosed in a memo, you're being naive If you don't think that there's like some hide the ball going on and not necessarily nefariously, but purposely within the bounds of reason.

Lloyd Metz: That takes a little time to develop. Yeah.

Sean Mooney: But like you gotta have that like kind of street smarts. There's a part of that that's important even at the associate level. And you can probably get through your analyst class at invest in [00:10:00] banking by populating models, but you probably similarly wouldn't proceed much further if you didn't have that either.

Doug McCormick: One random comment, but it, it kind of envelopes all of the skills we've been talking about is just organizational skills. Because I find what a lot of times happens is a lot of the work has been done. But then when you get into the real important decision making, it's often freeform conversation and I think the best junior team members are able to access real-time information in the context of supporting that discovery process.

And so it's like, well yeah, we did that work four weeks ago, but here was the answer. Here's the information that really helps the rest of the group get to really good informed decisions.

Sean Mooney: I think that's a great point. I think like the cousin to that is like multitasking as an associate. Maybe walk through like how many deals could they expect to have kind of in various flows in the funnel at any point in time, how many port cos are they working on?

What's the general kind of like constructing your firms on that in terms of all the different things they could have in different flows.

Lloyd Metz: I like that Doug. And [00:11:00] and that's super true and that's another form of synthesis. At this stage of your career, what information do I think Lloyd or Doug is gonna need to know for this meeting, this board meeting, this phone call, this negotiation?

And I need to have it with me or readily accessible. So how am I gonna organize it so that when I hear a clue or hint or when Lloyd says, Hey, what was EBITDA last quarter or two years ago when we bought that unit or bought that company? What was the EBITDA when we bought it? Like you kind of need to have that at your fingertips because it's informing the conversation and the discussion real time.

So that organization is part of synthesis, I think. Or at least what synthesis looks like at that stage in your career.

Sean Mooney: This episode is brought to you today by HCI Equity Partners, a lower middle market private equity firm, focused on partnering with [00:12:00] family and founder owned manufacturing, service and distribution companies.

ICV Partners, an innovative private equity firm, supporting management teams of leading companies at the lower end of the middle market and BluWave. The Business Builders Network, connecting the most proactive business builders in the world with the best of the best service providers are critical, variable, on point, and on time due diligence and value creation needs.

Now back to the episode. I think that's a great overview of what the associate does. It's a hard job. It's a really hard job, and it's so formative, and you're kind of drinking from a fire hose as they say. It's kind of the first test of can you make it? And then from there, maybe we'll talk a little bit later.

Very often. At least traditionally, people would then go to business school and then come back to private equity. I think that's changing now, and maybe we'll save that conversation for a bit later. Let's now jump to the vice president role. And so you've either jumped right to vice president from [00:13:00] associate, or you've come back after business school.

What are some of the new skills that a vice president has to have? And well maybe then talk about the traits later that the expanded skillset in order to be a vice president to set you up for the next level. And so from a skills like what are the VPs being tasked with doing that they have to demonstrate proficiency around that's above and beyond what an associate was doing.

Doug McCormick: Maybe before we talk about those skills in particular, I, I'd just like to make one comment here that I think is maybe an interesting takeaway for junior folks listening. Private equity is essentially a mentorship business where you learn by watching others. And so like we just talked about all the things that make you a great associate.

It's a real lost opportunity if you're also not like really proactively evaluating how the other people at the firm do their job. And it not only helps you prepare for that job someday, but I think it makes you better in your current role because you can be more kind of anticipatory about what they're gonna need.

I think one of the great things [00:14:00] about the industry is just the like really deep team interaction and connectivity that is a great learning opportunity. With that as as context I, I'll give a couple things On the VP role, I think this is where you start to marry management skills with competencies. So everything we talked about at the junior level, it's kind of, you're doing it and it's all about capacity and competency to do it.

And I think when you get to the VP role, you play a couple important roles. One is you are managing a junior resource probably at least some of the time. And with that incremental resource, I think you are responsible for essentially project management. You're able, you've had enough experience that you understand the flow of a deal when the stock purchase agreement needs to get done, when the financing needs to get done, when the Q of E needs to get done, how all that comes together and where like the long poles in the tent are so that you can kind of manage the deal flow.

The other thing I would say is I think you're a bridge between the team doing the work [00:15:00] and the decision making team within the organization. You are well positioned to kind of figure out when it's appropriate to have meetings with the senior team members and provide that conduit between the primary research and the investment decision.

I was very light on like what the incremental competencies are, but I think that role description is a help framework.

Lloyd Metz: I agree with that, Doug. I posit that that VP into principal, if you're at a firm as a principal level, those are the hardest jobs that the firm, because you need to be able to fact check and debug a model from the associate.

If need be, sit down and rebuild it if you have to. Your quality control. You also need to, as Doug mentioned, be able to manage not only the associate and your internal process, but you might need to start managing the accountants on the Q of E, yours or the, the sellers accountants starting to deal with [00:16:00] attorneys as it relates to the credit agreement or the purchase agreement.

At some point, you're gonna start managing outside third parties. That's not easy, right? And trying to keep them to a timeline and advancing the deal forward. And then with all of that detail work and staying on top of the details, you also at some point need to start being able to pull your head up and have a point of view about the business, about the investment.

Okay, we've covered every detail, but which ones matter most? And be able to have that conversation with your partner, with your managing director. So you, you have to be able to porous, right? Like go up and have a high level conversation about where this deal falls apart or where it might overproduce returns.

And then go down into the weeds to figure out if there's a bust in cell B 1 31 in the model.

Sean Mooney: So this is the first time in their career they're really probably managing [00:17:00] someone and managing processes. And if something goes wrong, it's on them.

Lloyd Metz: Yep.

Sean Mooney: And it's not like there aren't safety nets, but the expectation is you have to be able to manage this not only internally but externally, where in many ways, millions of dollars are being spent in the course of any one deal.

Right.

Lloyd Metz: Right. And I would even add, and I don't know what you think, Doug, but one of the important skills at this level is to ask for help.

Doug McCormick: If you said VP principal, it's probably the position that requires the most range, right? Because it's sometimes you're actually in the model and other times you're representing the firm externally with management teams or what have you.

So it, I think it really is a, in a good way, challenging and stretching to have folks play many roles. I also think in this role, two things start to happen that you don't see in the associate level. One is you have enough experience and context to be able to begin to define priorities. And that's like Lloyd, to your point about what matters [00:18:00] and you gotta do a little, a lot of work and you basically determine none of all that work concluded nothing matters.

Right? Which, which is helpful, right? 'cause now I can focus on what's remaining so that the definition of what is worthy of an incremental discussion or decision or risk mitigation or work. And then I think you are also in the first time where you really get to represent the firm, whether it be with counterparties that are doing work for you or.

The management team or the entrepreneur you're partnering with and you define who you are in terms of how you manage those interactions and what your style is.

Lloyd Metz: That's right. I'll even add to that. In my mind, that's starting to be the how you delineate a, a principal from a VP or senior vp from a a non-senior vp.

You're also starting to manage your relationships with the MDs. So you're not necessarily gonna work with just one MD all the time. You might be working with two, maybe three, depending on the size and and nature of your firm. And understanding what Doug [00:19:00] likes, what Sean likes, what Lloyd likes, and how they like it when they like it.

So managing those upward relationships adds to the complexity. It is a hard job for sure.

Doug McCormick: Yeah. So, Sean, I got one more for this category. I think this is firm strategy dependent, but I think in this VP principal level, individuals. In some cases start to develop market expertise or business model type expertise.

And so we see guys begin to specialize and carve out an area where, hey, like they're proficient in the investment process and then they're beginning to develop domain expertise. That I think is, is very important for the next step of managing director or partner. When you're leading a thesis or a deal,

Lloyd Metz: how do you see people do that effectively?

How do you see VPs start to carve that out?

Doug McCormick: I think some of it is a byproduct of the experiences you have, the benefit of having some really good reps in certain markets or industries, [00:20:00] and then I think it's a combination of what experience that you've had and how you can kind of reconfigure that in a way that it brings a new capability to the firm.

I think the most common way is back to be intellectually curious and engage with the marketplace. You know, there's so much. Back to your point about information. So much research, so many good third party intermediaries that have practices designed by, uh, domain or or end market. And it's really engaging with that community.

I think you can learn really quick.

Sean Mooney: Doug, I'm curious. This is really the role. If you think about the phase gates in private equity, the biggest off ramp is probably that period between associate and vp where professionals either go to business school or they, they do something else. Either because they don't want to do PE anymore or for variety of reasons they couldn't get back in.

And that could be market, that could be timing, could be a whole host of reasons. And so maybe if that's the biggest off ramp where the cohort kind of gets [00:21:00] narrowed, VP in my mind is then this is like your biggest checkpoint where you have now started your potential to be on a track to partner. To what extent are, are partners looking at VPs and starting to think, you know, this person could be a partner someday.

Or not? Does that come later?

Doug McCormick: Yeah. Honestly, I think the talent assessment comes way earlier. I think we get folks in who come into us at a junior level and, and within a couple years I think you begin to evaluate what their long-term potential and capacity is. So I think the signs of those capabilities start manifesting themselves much earlier.

But I think it begins to have real implications by the time you get to be a senior VP because you're gonna be expected in most firms to continue to assume positions of great responsibility. Lemme caveat that with, I've seen models out there and I think it can work well where somebody has a skillset and they're really good at that level and they don't necessarily need to progress to be a [00:22:00] partner.

And they still can have a really interesting career, be a big contributor to the firm, and it can still be very lucrative economically. So if you're really good at transactional underwriting processing. Managing that, that's a good skillset. You just gotta acknowledge. Does your firm allow that? Or is it an upper out kind of mentality?

Sean Mooney: Some firms will have, you have to be the purple unicorn and do everything. Other words, you can kind of be, I think we used to call 'em like the cranks. People could just execute. Like, and that's not a derogative term, that's just like they could really get stuff done in a truly excellent way.

Doug McCormick: Yeah. And I think candidly, like the fit of where and when that works and when it doesn't, I think is a byproduct of the team around you.

Right? So in some cases that can be a really valuable complimentary skillset. So lots of different partnerships exist where people are complimentary, not equally good at everything.

Sean Mooney: So if you, you acknowledge that we kind of take it up to the next way point. So a lot of PE firms will have an InBetween, [00:23:00] InBetween vice president and partner, and it could be a senior vice president role, it could be a managing director, it could be a principal.

Kind of this in-between role. What is the difference between an associate and a, let's call it Principal md senior vice president, right before partner? How is that kind of compare and contrast?

Doug McCormick: It's a great low risk way to give people the opportunity to begin to manage their own practice, if you will.

And so I think in some ways, like a lot of these partnerships, they're really a collection of entrepreneurs. And within each, each firm you have deal leads that are developing a book of business on behalf of the firm, right? And that book of business is their portfolio, the industries that they have expertise in, et cetera.

And so I think in that principle or MD role, a lot of times it's with a little more guidance than a partner. You're still responsible for thesis development, sourcing [00:24:00] transactions, being commercial, get them executed, diligence them, and then manage them. And consistent with like the value creation playbook that you articulated when you did the deal.

To a liquidity event.

Sean Mooney: So you're not quite on an island, but they're gonna let you kind of do all the things that you've kind of accomplished and, and gained mastery over from associate to vp. You're probably managing VPs and now the, the book is coming in or you get the book and you're gonna say, I'm gonna put this all together and say, advocate to do this deal or not, and then try to get it all the way through to a close and then have that primary interaction, or at least a close to primary interaction with the CEO, whereas maybe your VPs are probably talking your CFOs.

Is that kind of one way to think about it? You're bringing up a couple entry points. First of all, I think

Doug McCormick: the general way I, I'm thinking about it is it's a lot of the same content as a partner with a little more consensus building required. [00:25:00] As you're shepherding the deals through, because you're checking in with other partners to make sure like, Hey, this is consistent with the strategy, or I need some incremental support in certain areas.

So at a CI, we have a model where I'm involved with a lot of deals. I'm not like what I would say leading any deals on a day-to-day basis anymore. I'm trying to play mentor coach role where I've got very capable, very proficient deal leads who are coming to me with questions needs in terms of firm support and resources to successfully execute.

But they're kind of running that process

Sean Mooney: in terms of the traits. Now you gotta manage skills. You have to be able to manage VPs. You have to be able to come up with the whole thesis, put together the whole kind of story about why this is important, advocate it for it in the investment committee, and demonstrate your ability to kind of lead the value creation phase as kind of like almost the mini CEO, or not necessarily CEO, but the lead on that particular deal.

The way I experienced it when I was a principal is like. The partners [00:26:00] took me into a room, essentially, and like, all right kid, I guess it was kid, 30 5-year-old kid or whatever the however I was, or 30 or something. And they're like, we're gonna give you a shot. We're not gonna totally pull the net out from underneath you, but we wanna see if you can do the next job and we're gonna be helpful there, but we wanna see if you can do it.

It was exciting and exhilarating, and in some ways, I think a lot of people, by the time they get to principal, they're like, oh, I've been doing this job for three years. I think a lot of people in that job feel like they've been doing that forever, but the stakes are so high, right? You gotta have these way points.

So that was the way I felt when I was kind of through. It was like, okay, they're giving me a shot to become partner, but it's up or out at this point.

Doug McCormick: So I think the first two roles we talked about, it's really about competency and managing a process and the relationships associated with that process. I think when you get to this level, first of all, you're expected to develop and articulate like the vision or the strategy or the thesis, if it's a specific deal.

I think there is a [00:27:00] sales role and you're selling your partners and your colleagues internally, and you're also selling the entrepreneur. That's a definitely a new element. I think you have an opportunity to act as the principal in the transaction. So all of a sudden now you're not representing the firm.

You are representing the firm, but you are the person that the external people are looking forward to say, do we have a deal or not? Can I shake your hand and expect that the firm is gonna honor that obligation? And then the last thing about this role that I think is a growth opportunity is you've been exposed to this for a lot of your career, but you're finally responsible for the entire playbook.

And what I mean by that is to date, we've talked a lot of things that relate to investing skills. When you get to this point, I think you have the incremental opportunity to think about leadership and managing teams, assessing teams, building teams. That's a very different skillset and we focus so much on the deal.

But then you actually gotta own these businesses for five years and, and make 'em [00:28:00] better. And so I think the value creation playbook comes into an important part of how partners spend their time. And so that's an area where I think you all of a sudden you have responsibility for, even if you're not driving the specific initiatives, you have responsibility for that strategy and vision.

That's

Sean Mooney: a hundred

Doug McCormick: percent right.

Sean Mooney: Lloyd, what are your thoughts on this?

Lloyd Metz: This is a really critical professional step. It's harder than it sounds because of the things that Doug, you've already mentioned, the selling is really key and you don't generally learn how to sell other than watching others in investment banking or consulting or what have you.

But being able to sell your idea internally, this is a good investment or this is an area I think could generate good investments. You like, you start doing that internally as a VP in many firms, having the social skills, the EQ, to be able to convince an owner, entrepreneur. Or their colleagues direct reports [00:29:00] that you're a good professional to partner with, that this is a good firm to partner with.

And being able to tell and share stories, even as a VP of how you work with portfolio companies, projects where you've helped a portfolio company team improve profits or increase throughput or add value. You don't want to use those terms, but you want to use terms that the person from the company that you're speaking to understands.

So getting that part right is important and there's no super clear formal roadmap to figuring that out. But that's a key element that you have to develop if you want to get from VP to principal and md.

Sean Mooney: And then the one thing I would add is I, is I kind of go into the Wayback machine. I think you also have to demonstrate proficiency also in a couple other areas.

In terms of one, you have to be able to navigate through and have perspectives and take positions on the legal documents, which [00:30:00] was a huge kind of phase in growth and development. And so when you're a vice president, you often might be writing side saddle on watching people and reading credit agreements and purchase agreements, and maybe pushing through comments on IIS and Lois.

But now as a principal, you're kind of the real person who's driving all of those and whether or not you're going to be taking positions on legal terms, which could have real business and value implications, and then trying to work with your attorneys to get them to give you the best shot possible without running up a bajillion hours, just to kind of like meander through the legal process.

Is that a fair thing to also point out?

Doug McCormick: I totally agree. It's always interesting to me to watch the evolution where at this point, a lot of what you need to accomplish, you need to do through agreement with external parties. All of that is a negotiation of some kind. And so like it can be frustrating for people, but it's also really interesting and challenging in a good way.

'cause you gotta figure out how to get to the [00:31:00] desired end state. The only tool you have is persuasion. Yep.

Sean Mooney: And then I guess thinking through like you're also negotiating at that point, showing that you can negotiate with the lenders and hold them accountable and make them provide market terms where there's negotiations around both legal and points.

So all of this comes together. It's a huge another step function jump. And then the last thing that I experienced was as I was a vice president, you started like joining on interviewing new executives for their portfolio companies. And so particularly the CFO and the principle at that point, particularly CFO and, and sometimes even CEO, unfortunately, you have to make those changes.

You are doing a lot of the primary interviewing and then you're getting it down to a final slate before the partners will come. And that was a tremendous source. Of learning growth and terror for me as I'm finally like interviewing CFOs and I would interview the entirety of the market only to then realize that it was the second person I spoke to [00:32:00] two months ago and that person had already taken a job is, but just getting this kind of pattern recognition when the buck increasingly stops with you is really hard.

Doug McCormick: Totally agree. To me, the human capital is the absolute most humbling part of this business. There is no checklist. There is no exact playbook, and I've seen success manifest itself in a whole bunch of different ways. And so I personally try to be disciplined about how I'm improving in my evaluation of talent, my recruiting of talent, and my development of talent.

It's really hard because there's so many variables. It's, it's often hard to isolate like what made that person successful and how do I replicate that decision making the next time?

Sean Mooney: Yeah. In completely different circumstances that cost different companies, different situations, just maturity. I mean, even today, I think the best people at it aren't perfect.

Right? It's, it's still really hard. It's probably the hardest thing in in business. One other thing that I'd love, both your opinion and Lloyd's opinion is particularly at the principal or md, this last step to partner [00:33:00] role, one of the hardest things of many that I experienced was knowing when to ask for help.

Because you're allowed to ask for help as a VP and associate, but as a principal or md, you're trying to demonstrate to the partners that you got it and trying to find that fine line of saying, Hey, I want your opinion to help me navigate through this. I want your help. Those were always really tough kind of lines to draw because you wanted to show that you could be kind of a grownup in the organization and and kind of pull things all the way through.

But at the same vein, everyone can use at least a little help on things. And that's why I think once you become partner, then you realize like, oh, we were talking to each other all the time about different things. I had that tremendous amount of insecurity at that final stop about trying to show it and not wanting to, because I was concerned it would show weakness.

Doug McCormick: Yeah. And I think your perception and your reaction to that scenario is understandable and common. And I also think [00:34:00] it's way unfounded. And so, like, one of the things I've said is that I, I think I got really good at the business when I got confident enough to acknowledge openly that I didn't know everything and just be like unabashedly open about, I didn't understand what you said there.

Explain it again. Why do I need to know that? And be open about like, what I didn't understand, because I, I think it's not a reflection of like intellect or competency. It's a reflection of what facts did I have at hand. And I also think if you have the right kind of partnership dynamic, your partners actually A, their perspective will be valuable.

B, it often just articulating the issue makes you sharper about like how you think about it and like. The quality of your suggestion or your answer, soliciting feedback or soliciting help is also consensus building. To me, it's, it's like a fundamental part of a partnership is we all acknowledge like our blind spots and are, are open about 'em and are constantly seeking [00:35:00] feedback and input.

Sean Mooney: That's a great way to think about it. If you're successful in business and life, you eventually learn. Asking for help is a strength, not a weakness. But then also within the constructs of pe. Consensus building is so important because it's the partnership, it's the investment committee that ultimately decides whether or not a deal comes forward and, and I think that's one of the really important parts that's often lost and slept on in PE, is you don't want the investment committee to be finding out and testing new parts of the deal at the time.

You take a deal to an investment committee and so almost out of like selfish altruism, you should be asking opinions of the partners in the investment committee. So that by the time you get to them, you kind of know that everyone's aligned and in the right page versus figuring it out during a bruising three hour session.

Doug McCormick: Yeah. A session where you're soliciting feedback from your partners is kind of like you've now empowered them to own the solution too, right? And so like [00:36:00] I think it's just really critical

Sean Mooney: for our listeners. Different firms will handle it different ways. There's usually different phase gates as a deal progresses where you're checking in with the investment committee, which is typically comprised of the deal partners, operating partners as well.

And they're the ones who are ultimately gonna vote yes or no. And so one of the things that at firms that I was in where the whole mantra was like, you should know that you've got alignment and buy-in by the time you get to that final meeting. And if you haven't, you haven't done your job because it's, no one wants to be surprised by the time something comes through.

And if you haven't, then that's a failure. And so. There's a safety process that's built into every investment firm so that a lot of really capable people can poke and prod and test the thinking so that the best outcome is possible. And that's just part of the, I think, the secret to why private Equity's been successful so far.

So Lloyd, what are your thoughts on this point and about asking for help and soliciting feedback within this process? Both as maybe an [00:37:00] insecurity that certainly I felt when I was in the role, but also as a strength?

Lloyd Metz: Wow, that's a pretty heavy question. Let me think about it for a second. Because asking for help is a superpower, I think, but it doesn't come naturally to everybody.

Doesn't come comfortably to everybody. And in this particular context when people are working with you. But yes, they're also assessing you and to do you have what it takes to go from VP to principal to partner, how you ask for help does matter. So there's a difference between. Hey, I have no clue whatsoever what to do here.

Do it for me. The way you deliver the question, your tone begs someone to like do it for you versus, Hey, I've thought about this A, I've thought about B, I've thought about C. Here's how I see the pros and cons of each of the three. Sean, can you help me with this? 'cause I [00:38:00] feel like I'm missing something. I feel like I'm missing a major issue on path C.

Can you help me think through that? Point out what I'm missing in my logic, right? That's asking for help too, but that's a very different framing of it, and that is the hard part to figure out and learn. As you move from VP to principal to md. There are different ways to go about it in terms of asking for help.

You can even treat your partners as as a thought partner. I really believe this is a good investment. Here are the reasons why. Here's my thesis, Doug. I need you to find all the flaws in my argument. I need you to point out what risks am I missing completely. I need you to point out what risks I am discounting that are probably more likely to happen than I think, right?

That's another way of asking for help. But the way you frame it conveys [00:39:00] knowledge mastery, a degree of humility, right? Which is important as an investor to have all those elements.

Sean Mooney: Okay? So they've made it through the principle final check. Now, what happens if anything materially different from both a skills and trains perspective?

From the step from principle to partner?

Lloyd Metz: Yeah, that's not easy. It takes time and reps and. If you have good role models in the firm, that helps tremendously. But you gotta develop that set of skills for sure. The soft skills are actually pretty important, and some might say the harder or hardest part of this journey, even as a vp, you need to start developing and honing your eq, right, and developing skills on reading the room.

So you start with reading your firm, internally investment committee, or your Monday or whatever, weekly pipeline [00:40:00] meetings, reading the tone and substance of what people are saying. Depending on the firm and the culture, sometimes it's what people aren't saying, but picking up on that as a VP is where you ought to start.

For sure. And then as you think about working with external service providers, you can start to develop those relationships based on. Your working relationship, but then ultimately it needs to become personal. People need to trust you and like you, I think you start developing those skills. As a vp. As a vp, you have opportunity to work with executives at the portfolio company, so maybe you match up with the controller or the CFO or someone else in the organization developing a relationship, developing that trust, developing more than just the, the facts and figures in a bit of a personal relationship.

That starts at VP and I think becomes even more [00:41:00] important as you become a principal, an md. How do you develop a trusting and trusted relationship with the executives at your portfolio company, with the business brokers who may be serving opportunities for you to invest? How do you build a relationship with the owner of a business that you identified from your desktop work or whatever research.

You reached out, email, phone call, trade show. You still need to develop relationships so that EQ becomes even more important as you become a principal and then to md. That's the basis upon which you develop relationships, and ultimately that's a critical skill that you need to develop to become a MD or partner at a private equity firm.

I would also say back to the earlier question about how to ask for help, I think you also need to start developing a couple of things. One, the ability to [00:42:00] damp down your ego at times, because that's what allows you to ask for help actually, but it also makes you a better investor because as brilliant as you think your investment thesis is, and as high conviction you have on this investment opportunity or this particular market space that you think the firm ought to invest behind, you could be wrong.

And if you don't know how to manage your ego, it's hard for you to just be thoughtful, objective, and rigorous in figuring out your work, right, and this opportunity, I think you also need to find a way to suppress your ego and egotistical tendencies. Going through some exercises to become more self-aware, I think is actually very critical in this evolution.

From principle to md, what are your biases, right? What do you tend to favor, or what do you tend to reflexively [00:43:00] ignore or don't think is interesting of an investment opportunity? We all have our preferences. You should know that about yourself so that you can try to course correct. If you get an opportunity, you don't over index toward liking it when it may not necessarily be that good of an opportunity.

What are your hot buttons? What are your moods like? Understanding of my. More objective and clear-eyed in the morning, middle of the day or in the evening, like you need to start understanding those things about yourself. It makes you a better investor for sure. It makes you a better colleague within the firm for sure, and it makes you a better partner with your portfolio company leadership team that you work with.

But you need to develop those self-awareness practices as early as you can. But definitely by the time you're a principal with aspirations of becoming an MD or partner, you need to work on all of those [00:44:00] elements.

Doug McCormick: Lemme just differentiate. The way I think about it is if we're saying it's a partner role, all of a sudden you have responsibility for firm management.

So everything else is the same. I mean, I think partners in that role still are gonna go out and source deals and be responsible for the investment process and participate in the investment committee. And so then I think when you get to the partner level, because you have more resources below you. You hopefully by design, have capacity to think about management of the firm business.

Right? And the funny thing is, in my mind, this is the first time where everything you've done to date didn't really prepare you for some of the skill sets and things that you're gonna be focused on in managing the firm. So I think it's firm strategy, and that's somewhat related to to thesis strategy, but not exactly right.

I think this is thinking about where you wanna play in the marketplace, how much capital you're trying to raise, size of the team, geographies you wanna focus on, things like that. In my mind, once you've articulated strategy, it's, it's about [00:45:00] team and human capital internally, right? So how am I building a team that can compete win in the marketplace given the strategy that we've articulated and the development of that?

And I personally think this is a many year journey, right? As you think about like putting the right team on the field, being able to grow your own talent is critical. And I think a real competitive differentiator, if you can do it. And then I think you've got issues around how not to deliver great deals, but how to deliver a great portfolio, which is different in terms of diversification and construction.

And then also I think you are exposed to managing a different set of relationships. And so you're not only focused on like your deal relationships, you're focused on firm relationships, like who's your go-to lawyer, your go-to accounting firm maybe, but also, and perhaps most importantly, customer relationships, right?

So how am I presenting the value prop and how am I maintaining those relationships in a way that, um, [00:46:00] providing exceptional service? And by customer, what do you mean by that? Investors, yeah. My limited partners at the end of the day who expect not only good return, but transparency and clarity about the strategy they invested in.

Sean Mooney: And I think that's another really good point, and this is the first time you're actually involved in a material way on the fundraising of a new fund. And the limited partners who are your customers are likely going to interview you as they interview every partner, almost in many cases, every partner, right, to see what's the medal of the collective team and how well they gel and those

Doug McCormick: types of things.

As you think about that process and discussion, they focus on different topics, right? So I think limiteds, when they're interviewing deal leads, wanna focus on asking questions about deals and understanding your competency in delivering those deals consistently. And when you're being interviewed at the partner level, I think it becomes more around why do you feel like you can keep this team together?

What's your team strategy? [00:47:00] What's the long term strategy for the firm in terms of where you want to go with the business? It's a different, not only a different set of relationships, but it's a different kind of competency that investors are trying to assess.

Sean Mooney: So if I kind of summarize the journey here, associates, you're doing as asked, but you're developing the skills to also.

Proactively share and and advocate the things that you're synthesizing. Vice president, you become what's called the deal quarterback, where you're managing all these processes and taking more of a hands-on role in terms of the advocacy on a deal thesis and a deal process. The principle, you are in some ways a like a junior partner where you are bringing all of that together, but now you're also much more involved with legal processes, the full management of the service providers.

In the deal process. You're playing a bigger role on the board. Sometimes as a vice president you'll be on the board of a portfolio company, but it's really more as a vote, if you [00:48:00] will, at least in, in many firms. And then in principle, you're now expected to show that you can be a contributory strategic governance member.

And then as a partner, you've gotta manage all of that. And then the new thing is now you're involved in a more meaningful way with the fundraising. Of the next fund that's coming up, which is probably also a different level of economics for you now

Doug McCormick: as a partner. So in my mind, if you step back now, we've gone through all these different segments, uh, I would say every experience serves as a foundation for developing a set of skills or understanding the needs of your subordinates as you progress in the organization.

And in general, you're gonna spend less time on exercising those fundamental skills because you are now consumers of those skills in terms of you're a consumer of the content or the output. And fundamentally, I think you end up doing a lot more of kind of four different things. The first is, as a partner, I think you have much more control to set the agenda versus [00:49:00] execute the agenda.

I think you end up having a much more holistic skillset, but at the expense of depth in any one. So it's kind of like, you know, you're a utility infielder or you're a mile wide in an inch deep in terms of how you're spending your time. You're good at assessing the problem and directing resources to it.

No longer necessarily good at fixing the problem. And then I think you get a lot more opportunity to practice leadership and ultimately sales and that sales externally to investors, to partners,

Sean Mooney: et cetera. And to perspective Portos, right? You've gotta convince the seller of the company they partner with you.

And this is gonna vary wildly from firm to firm. But then how does then also the interaction change between your role with the operating executives within a PE firm?

Doug McCormick: Our strategy is one where we have an ops team. We kind of pride ourselves in pretty deep engagement with the businesses that we invest in.

I don't know, pride ourselves is the right [00:50:00] way, way to say it, but we believe that is required for success because we are in the lower part of the market and we are trying to scale these businesses meaningfully. And so there's a lot of work to develop those team capabilities to to get to scale. And so I would say.

All of our employees are actively in working with those teams in some capacity. And the real difference is are you directing the priorities and activities or are you participating in the initiatives themselves?

Sean Mooney: If you think about a deal partner as almost like the business unit head for each kind of portfolio company that could go through, are the operating partners reporting to each deal partner as it relates to specific portfolio companies in terms of making sure everyone is aligned on objectives and strategy and those type of things?

Or are there dotted lines in different places?

Doug McCormick: Yeah, I would say a little bit of both. So I think every deal partner, every deal has [00:51:00] an ops lead person, and I think a little about it, a little bit less of like a direct reporting relationship between the deal lead and the ops partner and more about dotted line between them.

Where they've gotta get alignment. But like, I think who has the final say is a more of a byproduct of whose zone of competency does this issue reside in? Right? Like, I'm not gonna override an OS partner when he says we should do a sourcing program this way versus some other way. And then I think there's also a firm wide and portfolio wide set of systems and processes around operational engagement that spans the whole portfolio regardless of the individual circumstances.

Like how do we do rapid assessments of various skills? What's the upfront value creation playbook look like? When's the periodic check-in on how we're progressing relative to that plan, et cetera.

Sean Mooney: In every organization, right, you're you're gonna have debate, you're gonna have conversation. And particularly with the capabilities that [00:52:00] reside within a private equity firm.

And so in the event there isn't consensus, does it basically then go to you as kind of the, the ultimate gavel on here's what we're gonna do and then everyone's gonna stack hands and say, go? Or how does that mean if you can't reach consensus? What happens?

Doug McCormick: Yeah. Different by different firms, but I think it gets elevated.

And honestly, like our firm culture is one of more kind of consensus orientation. And so my operating partner has this great saying that two people equally informed, almost always agree. And so when there's disagreement, I always push for, let's get more information and let's make sure everybody's got the same set of information.

Sean Mooney: And to be clear, like these are gonna be the outlier situations, particularly in PE firms, just the nature of where they're built, they're consensus oriented with investment ities and things like that. Lloyd, how about you all? How does that work from you all in terms of specifically within your dealies and your operating partners, and then how consensus is reached if there's not natural [00:53:00] consensus in these kind of outlier elements?

Lloyd Metz: I think you're maybe talking to a different kind of guy here. In terms of how I think about it. I, I don't see that there should be a real bright line distinction between investment partner and operating partner, especially at our firm. We're pretty small, so yeah, I agree with the part that your colleagues, your peers, there's no built in authority that one has over the other.

And so if you're trying to work a problem through on the portfolio company, it should be based in facts. So you should be able to at least agree on the same basis, level of facts, and then your conclusion on what you ought to do. Based on those facts, you should be able to lay that. And if there's a disagreement, you should be able to talk about what you disagree or what's your basis for disagreement.

I disagree with you, Doug, because if I'm the [00:54:00] operating partner, this takes a lot longer than you think it takes, or this initiative has a level of difficulty that I don't believe the leadership team has demonstrated they can meet. It's above their skill capabilities, right? Like you should be able to articulate the reason and the basis for your disagreement.

I don't see it as thorny as maybe you're framing it or setting it up. And oftentimes disagreements, I agree with you, come from a place where, okay, we don't have complete information, or we don't have enough information, or we haven't done the work or the analysis to uncover and see if we can make things a little clearer, less murky.

But once you exhaust all those efforts, getting the information, doing the work to figure it out, oftentimes it is a judgment call. And you really start to think about whether a decision can be easily reversed or not, [00:55:00] to me, would be the way I would approach a quote unquote disagreement. Right? So if both of our approaches can be reversed and course corrected, then you don't necessarily need to have a major escalation or fight to the death.

Sean Mooney: We've done the, the gamut of the core track. I liked how you, you all were sharing earlier, this is the ultimate mentorship business and so I forget who talked about 10,000 hours to have acumen in something and be proficient and, and private equity, I think it's tens of thousands of hours. Is that fair?

Tens of thousands. Yeah. Yeah. I'll let you

Doug McCormick: know when I get there. I'll let you know when I get there. Yeah. And

Sean Mooney: then you never stop, right? It's, it's the ultimate three dimensional speed test that's going on. So it means it's terribly fascinating, but it's something that never ends and requires a lot of work.

And one of the things that I think is in that thinking about continual education is the concept of business school. And it used to [00:56:00] be in business school that that was a standard process where you would go from your associate job, go to a top business school, get the credentials, round out your systems, and then you would come back in to private equity.

What are your thoughts on today on business school? Is it pre-req? Is it a heck Yes. Everyone should do it. Is it a no in your opinion, or is it a maybe?

Doug McCormick: First of all, I'm gonna give you a very nuanced answer here because I think we've gotta be clear on what is the objective, right? So. I went to business school.

I think it is a great experience, but I would define it pretty holistically. So great life experience for me, I was transitioning outta the army and so it was a great stepping stool to transition into a career that I wanted to get into. And I think there are a lot of wonderful things that come from that experience in terms of the network you avail yourself to the branding of being affiliated with the school and [00:57:00] the experience that you get.

And when I say experience, I mean not just the classroom experience, but like living in Boston for a couple years doing fun stuff with my wife and my classmates, et cetera. So like, I think you gotta look at it holistically as you're answering that question. So if you said to me, should I go to business school?

I, I would ask you a bunch of questions about like, what are you trying to get out of it? If you said to me, do I need to go to business school to be a successful partner in my firm, I would say no. And I'm generally of the opinion that if you wanna be exceptional at something, you gotta do that. And my experience at business school was, it was a really interesting exposure to a whole lot of different topics.

But in terms of the things that I think make investors good in my business, I didn't learn much of that at business school. And so I think it's a different set of questions. Why am I going to business school? And if you're evaluating going to business school from a private equity firm, I think you have to look at it in the context of do I feel like I'm learning at my current [00:58:00] firm?

Is my current firm have this as a requisite to continue promotion? And what are the prospects for this firm? And if I stay here, what does my future look like? Versus if I go to business school, what would the the opportunity set be? So I think it's really dependent on what you're trying to get out of the experience.

Lloyd Metz: Yeah. Well, first of all, it's a personal choice. Just empirically, there are fabulously successful people in private equity with and without MBAs. Some have jds. Some have just undergraduate degrees people can be successful with and without. Often, it depends on the nature of the firm, the kind of precedent that's set at the firm and how the firm treats its associates, VPs, et cetera, and and how they're roomed.

I also think it's a personal choice in that some people do get a lot out of a business school experience. There's something [00:59:00] to be said for the structure of going to business school, structure of going to class, picking classes and subjects that you may or may not be interested in as a way for people to learn.

I think people tend to say that they don't learn much from business school when they actually learn a lot more than they're willing to admit. You actually do learn a lot, not only from your professors but from your classmates. You get to see other people other. Ambitious, energetic people. You get to see different versions of what good looks like in terms of your peer group.

You definitely build a network of these smart, ambitious people. And so that's useful over the course of a career and even a lifetime. And I'll just say it just for the record, you know, there is value to some credentialing and so for some people the value that they get by going to business school and to certain business schools, the branding, the credentialing that they get from that experience [01:00:00] does matter to some people.

So it is a personal choice for sure.

Sean Mooney: I had a bit of a different experience in some ways. I was like straight out of central casting in private equity. I went to an undergraduate business school that was recruited by investment banking firms. I got into investment banking and then from investment banking I went to private equity and mostly just 'cause I followed what my roommates from New Jersey did.

Because I was a kid from Texas and had no clue what was doing. I just did what they did. But they were all raised by kind of Wall Street parents. And so I replicated kind of their paths and at some point I'd gotten to the point where I had got promoted to vice president. Back then you would come back from business school as an associate.

And so I had this conundrum where I was like, well, I already did undergraduate business school. And I'd come back to a demotion. I started talking to a lot of people about it. Some of my mentors at the private equity firm I was with said, you know, here's the deal, Sean. Like you're not gonna get a lot out of it, but I guarantee you it's gonna round you out in areas [01:01:00] that you don't appreciate, that you just haven't had exposure to.

And in retrospect, it a hundred percent did. But what I did was probably like door number three was the executive MBA route. And they said, we're gonna sponsor you if you stay with us during the MBA, we'll do this and then you can go on to, you know, either stay with us or go on as you're choosing. So it was almost like a stay incentive and.

It really did help. That route was another, I think, interesting way because you continue in your career, you continue to progress, you make income during the way and it was kind of cool 'cause we got to actually try this stuff in class in real life and have a skunk work in our portfolio companies on it.

And so for me, I thought it was really good is I looked at other people are doing. I think where it is most valuable. A lot of business schools, at least the one that I went to, which are great, are largely focused around kind of the, the finance and accounting in business through those lenses. If you're trying to go from kind of a non-finance, you haven't had the investment banking experience, you're a marketing person, want to [01:02:00] get into investment banking or private equity, I think that's tremendously great 'cause it gives you access to all these skill sets that you normally wouldn't have exposure to or vice versa if you wanna go from finance to consulting.

So if you're making a big transition, I thought it was really valuable, but if you're staying on the same path, I didn't get a whole lot from it. I did get a new network, which was really valuable as well with just really good folks. And the last thing that I would say is, if you're gonna do it, and one advice I was getting is like, you gotta go to one that ultimately, if someone explained to me it's, it's also a tiebreaker when you're looking for new jobs.

If you're going in these businesses where other people have it and you don't, and there's L things being considered, they're gonna pick the one with the MBA because it's kind of CY, a, right? Oh, this person had an MBA from this great institution. And so what I would say is if you're, if you're not using it for transition, you just want to do this thing.

The other thing I would say is I would be very careful about going into debt at times, hundreds of thousands of [01:03:00] dollars without that credential. Meaning something like spending a ton of money on NBA, just to get it from a place that maybe doesn't give you the credit for it. I don't know if that's a great ROI.

Is that a fair perspective or am I way off?

Doug McCormick: I think it is with one caveat, which is. I think some people choose entrepreneurship. There's no job criteria or selection criteria for entrepreneurship. You kind of put yourself in that situation, and that's an interesting one. I could make arguments about the benefits of business school in that context, and I could make arguments that for some businesses it's not that relevant.

Sean Mooney: What'll be really interesting now is with AI where you've got the sum total of human knowledge right in your app on your phone, and so I don't know how that's gonna change yet, but if I were to vote up or down, I would say net. Net NBA was certainly positive in my life

Doug McCormick: as was mine. It's a big choice not only in terms of capital commitment, but time commitment.

And so I think you gotta be really clear with yourself about what you hope to get out of it and how that translates into your objectives. A hundred percent. [01:04:00]

Sean Mooney: Gentlemen, once again, this is a really, really great pulling back the curtain on how the business of private equity works, and particularly for those who are thinking to building a career.

It's a really rare behind the scenes vantage into how people really navigate. The on roads and the path up to the partner position, which is not an easy journey, but it's certainly a fulfilling one if you're willing to sacrifice and go through this kind of 30 to 40,000 hour mentorship.

Doug McCormick: Yeah, totally agree.

Good conversation Lloyd. Good conversation Sean. A special thanks to HCI Equity Partners, a lower middle market private equity firm focused on driving transformational growth through consolidation strategies by partnering with family and founder owned manufacturing services and distribution companies.

Learn more@hciequity.com, ICV Partners and Innovative. Lower middle market private equity firm, [01:05:00] supporting management teams of leading companies at the lower end of the middle market. Learn more about IC v@icvpartners.com. And finally, BluWave, the Business Builders Network, connecting the most proactive business builders in the world with the best of the best service providers for critical variable, on point and on time due diligence and value creation needs.

Learn more about BluWave at BLUWAVE dot bed for further information on H-C-I-I-C-V and BluWave and relevant topics discussed here. During the episode, please see the episode notes for links, links.

Sean Mooney: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the individuals presenting and do not necessarily reflect the views positions of any other persons or entities, including those referenced herein, no representations, warranties, financial, legal, tax, or other advisor made herein.

Consult your advisors regarding any topics discussed during this [01:06:00] episode.

Join Doug McCormick from Oridian Capital Partners, Lloyd Metz from ICV Partners, and Sean Mooney from BluWave as they explore timely private equity topics and offer their seasoned perspectives on crucial areas of focus within the industry. Gain valuable insights from these industry experts in this engaging podcast tailored for PE professionals.