John Kirk, Tuckerman Capital | The Key to Modern Private Equity and Business Growth: People

Sean Mooney:
Welcome to the Karma School of Business Podcast. In this episode, we have a fantastic conversation with John Kirk, Deal Partner & Operating Advisor with Tuckerman Capital. This episode is brought to you today by BluWave. I'm Sean Mooney, BluWave's founder and CEO. BluWave is the go-to expert of those with expertise. BluWave connects proactive business builders, including more than 500 of the world's leading private equity firms and 1000s of proactive companies to the very best service providers for their critical variable on-point and on-time business needs. Enjoy it.

Sean Mooney:
So I am so pleased to have John Kirk here with us today. John, thanks for joining.

John Kirk:
Thanks. It's great to be here today. Thanks for having me.

Sean Mooney:
Well, it's always good... this podcast is in real life and I've missed that so much in this real world, so I'm very happy to not see you through a digital box and do this in person.

John Kirk:
You look a lot more human and interactive and I can touch it. I'm not going to touch it, but no, it's great to see you in person.

Sean Mooney:
So if we jump right into it. One of the things that I'd love to get is more of the backstory, more of the personal journey, and what's interesting about the current age of private equity is there's different paths that everyone takes to find it. So it'd be great if you could share a little bit about your kind of origin story, how you ended up in PE.

John Kirk:
Sounds good. Yeah, so a lot of people probably say this, but I don't think I'm your typical private equity person. There's the kids game, Duck, Duck, Goose. In Minnesota we call it Duck, Duck, Gray Duck.

Sean Mooney:
Duck, Duck, Gray Duck. I didn't know that.

John Kirk:
Yeah. So I'm the great duck. The first half of my career was in the social sector, so I worked with juvenile delinquents in wilderness therapy. I was regularly hit, spit on, and cursed at. It was like a typical board meeting.

Sean Mooney:
Was perfect training for-

John Kirk:
And also, during that time, I led a couple of international nonprofits, small ones focused on women, kids, public health. It was really impactful or meaningful to me, exhausting work. But I think in doing it, I realized that oftentimes I was more well-intentioned than I was actually impactful or effective. So about midway through my career at this point, I decided to go back to business school. I went to Tuck, and while I was at Tuck, I met Nick who's now the managing partner at Tuckerman Capital, and we hit it off. I decided to do an internship with him and I helped one of his portfolio companies navigate a supply chain crisis. Nick's great. The internship was fantastic, and when I graduated I decided to go to 3M instead. I just wanted to see how the big guys did it. I wanted to see what it looked like in one of the iconic companies of our time, and I consulted across their businesses. I worked in corporate strategy. I led their BDN strategy for their billion dollar home care business. The green yellow sponges that sit on every mom's sink, those were ours.

Sean Mooney:
No way. I love those.

John Kirk:
Yeah, I learned a lot. But what I realized was that I missed getting my hands dirty. I missed the speed, impactfulness, of working on small organizations and I needed to jump, I needed to get out of there. So I got back in touch with Nick and we agreed that it was time to work together again. So I started acting as an operating advisor across the portfolio of companies, and now I have more of a hybrid role where somewhere between the deal team, operating team and the portfolio company's leadership team. So that's how I got into private equity.

Sean Mooney:
I love that background though, because so much about, if you think about starting off in the nonprofit, the social impact space, it's still how do you make something, or in your case someone, or some cause, better and more effective and build something that matters. And I don't think a lot of people think about that in private equity, but at the end of the day, you're trying to build something that matters and it takes working with people through difficult situations that are not easy, that are filled with pressure, that with lots of roadblocks. And in some ways I think your background is a perfect training for that because it also brings the element of humanity into business building in a way that... as we see our data working with 500 PE firms, human capital, and of course, we have to call it capital, but it's the number one trend. And so I think your background is actually perfect for coming in and helping these businesses achieve something that they probably didn't think was achievable.

John Kirk:
I mean, all organizations have people at the end of the day, whether you're a nonprofit, whether you're a for-profit, whether you're a private equity or you're part of the Fortune 500. I mean, it's people at the end of the day that make businesses.

Sean Mooney:
As much as everyone thinks that ChatGPT is going to rule the world, at the end of the day, it's still going to be people. Of course, they said this when the internet came of age in the '90s and they said it when the iPhone came of age in 2007. They're saying this now with ChatGPT, but at the end of the day, it's still people that matter.

John Kirk:
Totally. I mean, that's one of our core values at Tuckerman is just being human. I did use ChatGPT yesterday. I was like, how do you retain talent or how do you get the most out of talent? And you named the sector, and ChatGPT told me five ways to do that. I was like, "Oh, this is really interesting." And I did another sector and they said the exact same thing. In some ways that's right, where people are people, and again, you're dealing with humans and how do you work with them, how do you communicate, how do you relate? But there's also just so much nuance that something like ChatGPT can't capture.

Sean Mooney:
Absolutely. And it's a great tool and that's what it will be. And I use it all the time and it's incredibly effective. At the end of the day, you got to distill it and make a decision.

John Kirk:
Totally.

Sean Mooney:
And so, one of the questions I love to ask John, is this idea of, we would know you better if we knew, this, about you. What is one way that we would know better about John?

John Kirk:
If you met me 4/5 of the way through my Appalachian Trail hike, 15 miles a day, for 2200 miles, Cheetos and Cliff bars fueling this body, and no showers, it was probably something special to behold at the time. But yeah, my wife Jess and I decided to hike the Appalachian Trail back in 2019. She was on a sabbatical and I had just left 3M and was joining Tuckerman, and we both needed a reset, recharge, and just to get back to who we were. So we jumped. We decided to take the five months and hike the Appalachian Trail.

Sean Mooney:
And did you do the whole trail?

John Kirk:
We did.

Sean Mooney:
Oh, my goodness. That is a rare accomplishment. What percentage of people who start it kind of end it, do you think?

John Kirk:
Actually I looked that up not too long ago. We started to get those Google reminders and photos of like oh five, whatever, four or five years ago you were doing this? 25%.

Sean Mooney:
25%.

John Kirk:
Yeah.

Sean Mooney:
Wow.

John Kirk:
But I think everybody who starts assumes that they're going to finish it. And it's just one of those things that most bodies at some point break down. Most psyches, you just get tired of walking.

Sean Mooney:
Do you have any instances where you said, you know what, I don't know if I can do this?

John Kirk:
Oh, totally. I mean, yeah, they were high highs and low lows. I mean, there was one instance when we were at the Nantahala River, and we had pushed it a little bit further than we had been hiking before. This was down in North Carolina still. And on the way down I pulled my calf.

Sean Mooney:
Oh, geez.

John Kirk:
Yeah, I could barely walk. And we made it to the bottom. There was a little restaurant down there at the river, and I remember looking at this map. It was like this two meter high map and we had done six inches, and I couldn't walk and I was devastated. I was a wreck. And that night I remember going to sleep and I just couldn't sleep. I was so afraid that I was going to fail or that I had failed already, and I was afraid that I was going to let Jess down. I was afraid that I was going to have to tell everybody back home who was watching us and following us that we just didn't do it. And in the morning, thankfully I was with Jess and she walked me back off that ledge and said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, let's take a day before we make any decisions here." And the next day I limped five miles out of the gorge and four or five months later we finished.

Sean Mooney:
That's amazing. And you just pushed through and one step at a time.

John Kirk:
Totally.

Sean Mooney:
I think it's a great kind of metaphor for, in some ways, you see a lot of people just building businesses, and it's this whole idea that I think the natural inclination for so many people is, you reach an obstacle and it's you just stop, and you turn around, or you go back, or you say, "We can't do it." And where I've seen just really incredible business builders like you is it's daunting. First, I think that everyone's human inclination is, "There's no way I can do this." But then you take a step and then you take another step and then you go around the obstacle or above it or below it, and it's just you can chunk it into one step at a time versus two meters of map.

John Kirk:
Yeah, it's feasible at that point, because you can take the next step.

Sean Mooney:
Was there anything that ever happened that was kind of dangerous beyond that where you say, "Oh my God, there's a mountain lion outside our tent?"

John Kirk:
Yeah, I mean there are some really weird situations actually. I mean, some of them were like I say, simple, but where you see a mama bear and there are three baby bears, scurry up trees and you're like, "Oh-oh. This is when bad stuff happens."

Sean Mooney:
Run.

John Kirk:
I don't know what to do. Get small.

Sean Mooney:
I don't know. "Is it black bear, brown bear, what am I supposed to do? Play dead? I forget which one. Where's our bear spray?"

John Kirk:
But no, I mean there were things like that. And then there's the people aspect of things. I remember there was one night, I think it was somewhere in the middle of Virginia, where we were sleeping and all of a sudden we hear these folks, it's like 3:00 AM walking by our tent like, "Hello, who's out there?" And they didn't say anything. They go away and five minutes later they walk by another side of our tent.

Sean Mooney:
Oh my goodness.

John Kirk:
And it happens again.

Sean Mooney:
I've seen that movie before.

John Kirk:
Yeah, is this Deliverance or whatever? And eventually when they came by again, I got out of the tent, I got the biggest stick I could find. I was like, "What are you guys doing?" And apparently they were looking for their hunting dogs. They had escaped and hopefully they found them. But I mean, that got scary.

Sean Mooney:
That's terrifying.

It's like we've all seen that movie. Yeah, it didn't end like that, so I'm glad yours did.

John Kirk:
You're just out there. You just feel so vulnerable. I mean, yeah, it was a special experience.

Sean Mooney:
That's amazing. Oh, wow. I don't know how I would've responded.

John Kirk:
I didn't know how I was going to respond. Again in the moment, it's like that self-preservation thing of what can I do in this moment?

Sean Mooney:
It's fight or flight. And you at that point, you've got your loved one with you. You got to get out of the tent.

John Kirk:
Yeah, totally. I'd rather face it head on than just sitting there.

Sean Mooney:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a good kind of transition where you've got, now you're an operating executive at Tuckerman, you're seeing all of these companies all the time. It's a huge kind of advantage and amazing perspective to have because you get to see from a pattern recognition, this is what equals an attractive company or what could become an attractive company, if you do something. And so as you start looking at companies that become involved with Tuckerman, what's kind of your yardstick? What do you say, here are the things that I look for in a company in terms of what is a really good business or what could become a really good business with more care, attention, resource in nurturing of the company?

John Kirk:
Definitely. I'd say that they're probably three areas of focus that I typically look for. Some of them are software, or some of them are more, I think, standard across private equity groups that you would talk to. The first one would be a growth mindset of the team. The second one would be alignment to secular trends. And the third one would be an identifiable differentiation that folks are willing to pay for. I couldn't think of a shorter word I guess. But the first thing is growth mindset of the team. I mean, I think that that matters more than anything. I hate being around people who just can't understand that there are other ways to do things and can't see past their own perspective of being right. I'm wrong all the time.

Sean Mooney:
Me, too.

John Kirk:
And most people are. It's just, I mean, we're human. We make mistakes. And I think that those who are successful are those who can fail, fail fast, and learn from those mistakes. They get energy from operating in ambiguity and from the discomfort of it all. I mean, I would much rather, any day of the week, work with a team that's rough around the edges and has that grown mindset, than a team of your traditional A players. I guess my A players, they have to have a growth mindset.

Second one would be alignment to secular trends. If this were the days of the gold rush, we'd be looking for the companies that made the picks and the shovels. I mean, today it's aging populations and energy transition. I mean, recently we've made investments into a company that made orthotic footwear that was really attractive to the aging population. As people age, mobility becomes more and more important. And if you have good quality footwear, that helps. The company that I currently focus most of my time on is focused on maintenance and repair of gas turbines. And natural gas is going to be the long-term bridge between the dirtier sources of energy like coal, and the sources of energy that we all want to move towards that are more renewable. So in a world of, I like to think, of bodies of water and I mean we're looking for that fast-moving river because even a raft moves quickly down a fast moving river.

The third one would be that identifiable differentiation that people are willing to pay for. We look for companies that have a service or a product that customers really care about that typically aligns with some sort of outlier unit economics and profitability. And those products and services tend to sell at a justifiable premium. So you marry that with a lean philosophy and you start to, again, going back to those bodies of water, you find that right boat for the chosen river.

Sean Mooney:
That's great. I really like those perspectives across a whole host of areas. I think they're spot on. And even when you particularly talk about growth, it's so easy to say, "I now have all the answers and my way or the highway," but that often leads you racing into a tunnel and you're not sure if there's a train or a light at the other end, but you're just plowing. So we've spent a lot of time when we're starting thinking about what are our cultures and values. And one of the four things that we aspire to and nurture are people with a growth mindset. It's this idea we want to learn, we want to question, we want to be curious. And you never have a finished product and you can learn through other people. And very candidly, if our business were up to me and whatever's trapped in my steel rusty trap up here, we would be in a lot of trouble.

So it's just this idea of you bring in people who are smart and curious and have this kind of perspective of kind of like you, something gets in your way, you're going to take a step ahead. And so I love all of those, but that mindset I think is so essential. Really anything to anything, but particularly building a business which is this multi-variable kind of creature.

John Kirk:
I mean, we're surrounded by smart people. All of us are. I mean, I talk to other operating partners all the time and they're probably all smarter than me. And if there's a way to figure out how to compete, it's well, find people who are always growing and who are constantly getting better and surround yourself with them, too, because I mean, they're going to find solutions. They're going to find better ways to do things, and I hope they bring me along with them.

Sean Mooney:
I was talking to my wife's dad one day and he is friends with the president of a well-known university, and he was asking him, "Who are the successful kids that graduate from your school? Is it the A students, the far right quadrant of IQ, or is it someone else?" And the thought was... and he was probably like me, like the classic decent grades, but certainly not... I didn't have any yellow ropes around my neck at graduation. And it was really insightful. He was like, "Oh, it's really easy. Typically, it's the Bs and the C+ students that are really tenacious and gritty and clever and don't think they know all the answers, and they're the ones that have the buildings named after them."

And so I think to your point is, we work with, and certainly in PE, I worked with people regularly who are much smarter than us and who were also very successful, but they also were clever and tenacious and had that growth mindset. But if it were up to my IQ alone, I'd be toast. And so I 100% appreciate that mindset of just be open to the world and listen to it and learn from others. And that'll take you really far.

John Kirk:
I hope so. And I mean, I think that's what we've seen when we've had those outlier outcomes. It's because we just have the right team and they make mistakes. It's messy, but they get it done and they accomplish something special.

Sean Mooney:
So, one of the things that is really interesting, so private equity is evolving very quickly. It's an industry that certainly has more and more capital coming to it because it's historically achieved better returns than anything else. And a more consistent basis, for sure. It's not, you've got top returns with narrow deviations from the standard. And so it's something that's attracts a lot of money. And so what that means is, it's getting more competitive. And the great thing about PE, we talk about growth mindset or tenacity, the grit, you all don't just let the gravity of an increasingly competitive industry impact what your returns are. And so we're just going to figure out more things. And so you've had this evolution where now I like to say there's this symphony of motion between deal teams, operating teams, portfolio company, leadership teams, and they're all working together to achieve this common goal. And that can be hard when you have all these different, there's common goals, but there's different things that have to kind of work together and almost like a motion offense on basketball or something like that. So how do you all manage that?

John Kirk:
Yeah, so I think with this question, I am in a unique position. As I mentioned earlier, I sit somewhere between the Tuckerman's deal team, operating team and the portfolio company leadership. I might be biased, but I think it's a really cool spot to sit and to be able to see this symphony or this motion offense that you were referencing. I think that is a good reference. The one thing I'd say is I'd probably add an additional group here, which would be the company employees. I think that group of stakeholders is often not talked about, but so absolutely fundamental to the success of any deal. I'd say within those groups, it should be simple, in theory. I mean, it's you all want the same thing. You want a successful growing profitable business because investors make more money. Employees, leadership should also make more money and have additional opportunities.

In practice, it's a lot messier. Alignment is hard. And I think the problems start to appear when you assume that alignment is there. And I think that's where you, early and often, and what we do at Tuckerman is, I mean from even before a deal closes, we're establishing that alignment. We're setting expectations and even more beyond that. It's not just setting an expectation, it's starting to build trust, respect, that human connection that we were talking about earlier, because you have to start off on the right foot. Once the deal closes, then we start to focus on strategy and strategic alignment. Our first pages of the playbook are all related to what are we going to do, how are we going to do it? And I mean, when I look at it, I start with why does this organization exist? Why do these people work there? And we then get into core values. We talked about being human... at Tuckerman as one of ours there, but core values and just where we want this organization to go and what it's good at, strategic intent.

After we get that defined, we move into three to five years out, where do we want to be? If you're going to get somewhere in three to five years, you better get someplace in a year. So what are your objectives for the next year? What are the priorities, three to five things that you're going to be focusing on? And what are those key initiatives that you have to execute in order to be able to be successful? And throughout this process, it's not the operating partner and the leadership that are defining this, this is the whole team, because you have to have those different perspectives from throughout the organization to be able to really build something that's robust and that's going to be effective. And if you use the whole team, if the company's employees are involved, they're going to be bought in, they're going to execute it. It's not just a piece of paper that you look at and it stays on the shelf. It actually gets done.

And I'd say that the only couple of things past that would be you better align compensation to that. I mean, at the organization that I'm currently working with, we do bonuses based on something that's effectively cashflow and it's a percentage of cashflow for the entire organization so that you're not capped out on some percentage of salary where everybody's pretty well off. But those who make the most are those who are leadership or in the fund. And then beyond that, it's communication and just transparency, whether it's through performance reviews, whether it's through quarterly updates. I mean all those stakeholders need different types of communication, but it's being transparent. It's letting them know when things are rough, it's naming things that are struggles. It's celebrating the successes and it's being consistent with them.

Sean Mooney:
That's great. I think you summed up an MBA in like three minutes there. That was really good. But that's so true. It takes a lot of different constituencies to build a great company. And I think if I looked at maybe the older days of PE in years past, it was more of we're going to give you the money. You guys figure it out, and if you don't figure it out, there's going to be changes. And what you're articulating is this, we're in this together. We're going to come and we have perspective. You have perspectives. Let's make a greater whole. Let's hold each other accountable and then let's align incentives so everyone succeeds and not just a few. And so I think that's a really smart way to do it. And I'm sure it enhances outcomes, but it also increases the likelihood of success, the expected value, outcome times probability, right?

John Kirk:
Yeah, I think it's just fun. I mean, this isn't rocket science. I compare this to cooking with my son. There's flour everywhere. Somehow sauce got on the ceiling-

Sean Mooney:
You've been to my house.

John Kirk:
Yeah. But I mean, the ingredients are right. The outcome is good, and it's a lot of fun along the way. It's so much more rewarding when you do it with everybody, as opposed to just with a few.

Sean Mooney:
And I think that's a great metaphor there as well. And you think about it, but sometimes, particularly when I cook and I'm often not allowed to because my outcomes often aren't that great.

John Kirk:
I'm the same. My wife's totally the better cook.

Sean Mooney:
I'm allowed to do the big green egg and then the Blackstone griddle. Quick aside. So we had this chili cookoff within our company. It was this great experience. And of course, I found this recipe on page 10 of Google, and the first time I made it, and I've grabbed my wife's really nice kind of pot to do this, and she had terror in her eyes and she goes, "No, that's my favorite pot. You're not use this." I'm like, "Honey, stop micromanaging me. This is going to be great. I'm not going to hurt your pot." Sure enough, I totally destroyed the pot.

The next day. I was like, "If I destroy your pot, you get a brand new pot." The next day there was a brand new pot. Somehow I managed to break this thing that is unbreakable, you know, cast iron pot. So we have a brand new pot that's really nice, I'm not allowed to play with anymore. That's a long way of segueing into, as you're building these companies, there are businesses that kind of differentially succeed and those that don't. What are some of those difference makers between those differentially successful companies?

John Kirk:
No, I think it's even more pronounced in the current economy, too. I think there are some fundamentals that you just can't ignore. And that goes back to the alignment to secular trends. If we're thinking of bodies of water, again, going back to that, you don't want to be in a dirty puddle that everybody loses. But beyond that, those organizations that win will be those that best understand talent, full stop. All businesses are people businesses, and those who get the most out of their people will win. And I think that goes back to starting with growth mindset. That starts with the alignment, but it also goes to thoughtful investment in talent and getting the most out of those folks. So we hit on a couple of those earlier. But from an investing in an organization's talent, there is so much unlocked potential in the organizations that we work with.

I think we as operators are often far too fast to start looking outside the organization as opposed to inside the organization, which is great for job placement. Don't get me wrong. It's a very important role that some of those organizations play, but there's just so much potential that we are not getting the most out of within any given team. So what I like to do is to focus more of my energy towards that area because I do think that's what makes a difference. And within that area, it's identifying that if this were a Venn diagram, an overlap between what an organization needs, the role gaps that are preventing you from getting to the next level, and the talent within the organization, the skill sets, the strengths and weaknesses, the ambitions of people. And if you can identify again in that Venn diagram, that overlap, that's where you invest.

So I use a couple of processes or tools to do that. We use something I call a role gap analysis, as well as just a very strong performance review process. A role gap analysis is, as the name suggests, you're identifying gaps in roles within an organization and what is their cause, what is the severity of these? You marry that with that strong performance review process where you're consistent, you're radically candid, you're growth focused, and you can then as a leader, work with an individual to create goals that both address those role gaps as well as help to achieve ambitions.

And once you have that growth plan, that's where you invest within an organization. And when I say investment, I don't just mean money. That could be reading a professional development book with the team. It could be sitting in on a dry run of a presentation with a leader that's working on public speaking. And sometimes it does cost money. Sometimes it's leadership coaching or class on Excel and financial analysis. But it's a more targeted approach to investment that I've seen just have outside returns at the end of the day, so that no matter the economy, no matter the situation, you're going to be successful.

Sean Mooney:
I think you're spot on. And particularly it is counterintuitive, I think for many, as you think about tough economy, focus on people. I think anything you read in the headlines, tough economy, fire. And I think particularly in private equity, there's this notion that PE is this 1980s movie. Maybe it was in the 1980s. I'm 48, so I wasn't that old. I was around, but I wasn't a real person at that point. But it's really interesting. And I perceive the world through reading things and looking at data, and that's a strength, but also a weakness if you ask people about my intouchness with humanity at times. But you know, you can talk to my wife Kate about it, but I figured it out eventually. So one of the things that when we looked at COVID, I was like, this is an n=1 period in history, so let's look what the data says.

In some ways, BluWave is this amazing living case study because we've got more than 500 PE firms that feed their most critical projects into us to connect them with the resources they need. And so the best business builders in the world, how are they acting? How are they getting through this? And the narrative might be that it's well, they cut costs and they have access to more liquidity and they wait it out. And what we see when we look at the data is, they do get liquidity, because the number one thing that makes a company go out of business is you run out of fuel. So that's absolutely true. But the first thing we saw... Next, they gather information to an active plan. But when we looked at COVID, it was they got liquidity, they got data, and then they surged into action at the height of COVID.

And the first thing we saw the industry doing was hire tons of people, bring in expert resources, start doing employee organizational assessments and voice-of-the-employee studies. How do we make this team more empowered and more successful during this really tough time? That's the number one thing.

And today we've been in this washing machine economy really since then. Still the number one area that we're seeing you all spend time on is people. It's bringing in droves of net new people with unique skills. It's doing coaching, like you mentioned. It's doing organizational effectiveness and improvement assessments. So you talk to all your employees, what can we do to BE better? It's also at times, bringing in wartime generals. There's people with very unique skill sets that haven't been needed since 2008. And so what you're saying, I think, is spot on and is really counterintuitive because I think most people when they think about economy, it's circle the wagons and fire. But the opposite is from what we see and exactly what you're saying is completely the truth.

John Kirk:
Yeah, and I think also in rough economies, and you hit on COVID, there's just so much fear out there. And when people are afraid it's fight or flight. They're not using the best parts of their brain. And the more that you can again, have those human conversations and let them know that you're going to be as transparent as possible and that we're all in this together, it starts to get that brain back into the better portions that you should be thinking from. And people start to be more creative and more curious and start to think about solutions as opposed to, "oh, what do I do when I lose my job?" And it's just a different mindset. And those organizations succeed faster. I mean, I think when you see COVID this big drop in the economy and all of a sudden it bounced back. And I do think that part of that is just that hopefully people are learning that if we go through this together and we are not just like chop, chop, chop, chop, that we react and we succeed faster.

Sean Mooney:
Absolutely. And I think... I love that word, this whole reaction. And kind of going back to your story about your experiences during the Appalachian Trail, it is scary. Someone's walking around your tent, you can sit there, what do you do? COVID was terrifying, I mean, I think for all of us, for a number of reasons. You can sit in the tent and wait until things will happen. You can get out of it or you're hurt. You can take one step at a time, and you do that with people. And so I think your perspectives there are 1000% spot on. And I think for any business builder, business leader out there, there are lessons that, not only they can do as leaders, but also inspire their employees to do.

My dad used to always use this word, onward, every time. It's this idea, when something's tough, it's like take a step. You don't have to think about 50 steps, take one, and then something gets in your way, go left or right, kind of a thing. And so that's something that I use a lot as well at our company. It's like, let's keep on going forward. It doesn't mean you can't pause and gather information about what's going on and look into that tunnel and say, "Is that a train or is that a light?" But just that predisposition to learning and growth and reacting and taking action is so important.

John Kirk:
I really like that.

Sean Mooney:
So I think that's a really good mindset that every business builder that listens to this should think about, and can do something about, which is important. So one of the things that I love working with people like you John, is, you get to learn from all these people. And like we've said, and I definitely probably overly share on this, if life were up to me, I'd be in a lot of trouble. But I try to have the humility to be self-aware about that. And so I like to read a lot and take little pieces. And I'm certainly a dabbler on reading where I'll read... I have 10 books on my-

John Kirk:
All of them are 30% done?

Sean Mooney:
Yeah, exactly. And I just kind of go... And maybe there's some ADD in there, but you find little nuggets and then you find custom ways to implement them in your life. Are there any kind of business or personal books that you've read that have been impactful for you?

John Kirk:
Yeah, so the book that I reference is, US, by Terrence Real. Jess and I actually just recently read it, because it was recommended to us by a couple's therapist. And there's this really impactful quote in the book that was something to the effect, and I'm sure I'm going to butcher it, but, "Would you rather be married or right?" And I'm an optimizer. Decimals matter. I would love to be factually correct, but people aren't spreadsheets. People have feelings, and we do dumb things all the time like we've talked about. And we're perfectly imperfect. And I think that's beautiful.

And to be successful as a couple and to be successful within any relationship, you have to be willing to put the collective before the individual. And that means listening more, talking less. It means really trying to understand the other person's feelings as opposed to being right. And if you can do that, you work through things. Both people end up being happier, and once feelings are addressed, you typically end up having better outcomes and getting to better solutions as well. This is something that, again, going back to business, business is really, in my eyes, not much more than a series of relationships. So I often say to folks, again, some version of the same thing, "Would you rather be married to me or right?"

Sean Mooney:
But it is a marriage. It is. It's a three to eight year marriage, right?

John Kirk:
Yeah, it totally is. I mean, that's a very good way to think about it. And it ends up being like, "Would you rather be on the team or would you rather be right? Would you rather be right or be successful?"

Sean Mooney:
I think that's a very poignant kind of observation. And certainly I can say I'm always right, so... No, I'm kidding.

John Kirk:
I'm actually correct.

Sean Mooney:
For real. I'm like an MLB baseball hitter. It's more like in the 300s, but I keep on swinging.

John Kirk:
I'm at 250 I think.

Sean Mooney:
So I'm definitely going to read that book and add it to my bedside pile, but I want to read it first so I can be more right when I share it with my wife. Wait, wait. I was the one that brought this to the relationship. Wait, that wasn't your point. Wait, I've already butchered it. No, I'm going to read it. We'll read it together. Okay. See, I've learned. It's growth.

John Kirk:
One step at a time.

Sean Mooney:
It's a path. I'm an imperfect person. No, but I think that's a great point and a great life lesson that, I think particularly people that are in this world are such high achievers and they've been successful because they've bet on their hunches. And so it's not always a natural inclination to do that, but it's so incredibly important, and this is all tying right into this whole conversation where you said this whole growth mindset, you're never always going to be right. And if you are... There's been very few people in this world who have always been right, and actually I can't name one. So I think that's a great way to wrap this up in terms of particularly now that we live in, and really the always that we live in, is this idea that it is a collaboration, it's a relationship, and if you have this idea that you're always going to be right, you're wrong.

John Kirk:
Yeah, you're not going to be successful.

Sean Mooney:
So John, I've really appreciated this. I've learned a ton. I've got a new book on my reading list, and I had multiple MBA courses throughout here, so thank you so much for sharing the time with us and your perspective and insights.

John Kirk:
I love this. It's been a lot of fun for me, and I also learned a lot, so it's been fun just to hear different perspectives and to hear feedback, and I mean, I think I'm going to be thinking going forward about taking just one step, one step, one step, because it is. I mean, learning from those bite-sized pieces and just moving forward, onward.

Sean Mooney:
Onward.

John Kirk:
Yeah.

Sean Mooney:
Thanks John.

John Kirk:
Thank you.

Sean Mooney:
Special thanks to John for joining. If you'd like to learn more about John and Tuckerman Capital, please see the episode notes. That's all we have for today.

For more information on this podcast and BluWave, go to blue wave.net/podcast. That's B-L-U-W-A-V-E. Please continue to look for us anywhere you find your favorite podcasts, including Apple, Google, and Spotify. We truly appreciate your support. If you like what you hear, please follow, review, and share. It really helps us when you do those things, so thank you in advance. In the meantime, let us know if there's anything we can do to support your success. Onward.

Private equity insights for and with top business builders, including investors, operators, executives and industry thought leaders. The Karma School of Business Podcast goes behind the scenes of PE, talking about business best practices and real-time industry trends. You'll learn from leading professionals and visionary business executives who will help you take action and enhance your life, whether you’re at a PE firm, a portco or a private or public company.

BluWave Founder & CEO Sean Mooney hosts the Private Equity Karma School of Business Podcast. BluWave is the business builders’ network for private equity grade due diligence and value creation needs.